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Aman: Folks, welcome to another episode of the "I AM GPH" podcast. Now, we all know that food is the backbone of many health factors, and the world of food is incredibly extensive. On today's episode, we have Michael Burbella. Michael is an executive chef who has been cooking for over 25 years now. He has had an extensive international experience working in Michelin two and three star restaurants around the world, traveling through a variety of countries, namely around Europe and Asia. Michael is received his first MA in food studies and nutrition from NYU back in 2019, and is currently pursuing a masters of public health in nutrition at NYU. With all this knowledge of education and all the knowledge he has, he believes that everyone should have access to healthy food choices no matter what socioeconomic background they come from or their income levels. In the future, he would like to work with national or international, local and state government officials and agencies to look at what can be done to accomplish this goal. With that said, Michael Burbella, welcome to "I AM GPH" podcast.
Micheal: Thank you. Thank you for that introduction. I'm thrilled to be here.
Aman: We're very thrilled to have you and let's just get started on, there's so many questions I've been excited to ask you, but let's start off with, for someone with such a fascinating background in the culinary industry — I don't even think I've been to a Michelin star restaurant — co, then how do you stumble upon that world of Michelin star restaurants, which is more, one would say elegant and then into the world of public health all of a sudden? That something you chose to invest your time in?
Michael: Yeah, you know, food for me, I've just been surrounded by food my whole life ever since I was young. And you know, I'm from an Italian American family and my first memories are of my mom preparing Sunday meals, you know, pastas and lasagnas and things. And our whole family would get together and sit at the table and eat. And you know, food was always a celebration for me. It was comforting, it was nurturing, it was very satisfying. And at that time in my life, you know, I was young. I just took it for granted that we always had food on the table. You know, I wasn't aware of food insecurity and a lot of hunger in the world, or you know, hunger, right within my state or within my county. You know, my friends had food and I would go over there for dinner. So, food was comforting for me, you know? And then I started my first job in high school. I started my apprentice as a chef at a local restaurant in New Jersey at 15 years old. And I started cooking for customers. And that was also very satisfying and fulfilling, you know, just like nurturing and cooking for people and preparing food for people. And I decided that, you know, I definitely wanted to pursue being a chef. And then after high school, you know, I went to culinary school. I went up to the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park. And at the time I went to school, I went to culinary school. It was a while ago, you know, we didn't learn about food insecurity or inequalities within the food system. They just train you to be like a fine dining chef and be the best chef you could be. So, I went through that program and I decided to move into Manhattan. So, I spent a couple years in Manhattan and got jobs at these high-end restaurants, you know, cooking tasting menus, and very expensive meals. Yet, my first couple positions, I wasn't compensated a lot of money, so I lived in the Bowery, right? So, I was living in the Bowery, a block from the Bowery Mission. So, I would get up and go to work, and I would see these lines of individuals who were food insecure, getting food from the Bowery Mission. And on the other side of the coin, I would get on the six train and go uptown 15 minutes and be cooking these meals that cost hundreds of dollars for people and something just stuck with me, these inequalities, you know, I was like, "I see people who can't even afford a meal yet these other people are spending hundreds of dollars." And that stuck with me. And then after speaking to chefs that I worked with, you know, a lot of them went to Europe and trained in Europe. So, I decided that was the next logical step. And again, I did what I was supposed to do or thought I was supposed to do and I went to all these two and three star Michelin restaurants, and I had the opportunity to work in different countries. I went to France and Italy and Spain and Switzerland based on my training in New York. And I had some time off in between jobs. I was out there almost like five years. So, I would travel when I had time off. And I had some opportunities to go to Eastern Europe at the time. And I remember being in Hungary and Czech Republic and Slovakia, and I'll never forget when I was in Slovakia, just the food access and the food insecurity, you know. People, like 25 people waiting outside of a bakery to get bread and people waiting outside the supermarket. And one of the images that stuck with me most was the line outside of a pharmacy with like 50 people trying to get their medications. And I was just like, you know, I couldn't believe it and it was like shocking. And that stuck with me. And then after my time in Europe, you know, I returned to New York, and now this time I was the executive chef and I still pursued the fine dining. So, I took these positions. I wound up eventually at the Metropolitan Opera House, and people were spending a lot of money and they were very demanding and, you know, it was always in the back of my mind, this food secure issue and helping people. And I just felt that I was just doing this fine dining thing and it wasn't satisfying me that I was feeding people and nurturing people. And I looked into, I started looking into programs and I found the Steinhardt Food Studies program. You know, I was searching for something, I was like searching for a couple years. I knew I wanted to do something different, but I couldn't make, you know, I was thinking about things and thinking about food insecurity. And the program at Steinhardt, you know, I started taking classes on food waste and inequalities. But one of the things that really got me into public health was, you know, NYU has a very strong study abroad program, so I had always been focused on Europe and European countries. So, I decided to study and look at food systems in other countries. So, I went to India and I went to China a few times to different cities on mainland China. But what I also did was I took side trips. So, if the course was two weeks, I would leave like 10 days early. And one of the places I went to was Cambodia and I traveled around and I just went to these towns outside the big cities. And when I was in China, I went to towns outside the big cities. And what left the biggest impression on me was being in Cambodia and seeing the food insecurity and just the conditions and no plumbing and the water situation and the food. And that made me really do like a 360. And when I graduated from the food studies program, for me, the next logical thing was public health, you know? And since my background was in food, for me it was public health nutrition. And I just want people to, I just want to help communities and individuals understand the detriments of a poor diet and help them understand how to cook their meals and shop and just help them help their wellbeing. And presently I'm working at at two jobs. So, I'm teaching an undergraduate course in the food studies department at Montclair State University. So, it is like a kitchen science and a lab. So, it's like a 40 minute lecture or a half hour lecture, and then they break into a lab and they cook. So, I'll talk about like enzymes and cheese making. So, we'll make like a pannier cheese with lemon juice on the tabletop. Then I talk about yeast, then we make bread. But also, I had placed my resume on Handshake and Harlem's Children's Own contacted me and therefore underserved community blocks within Harlem. It's a school system, and they have a nutrition program, and they offered me the position as a nutrition educator. So, I'm giving lectures to middle or six to eighth graders, and it's a plant-based curriculum. So, I'm teaching them about vegetables and nutrition and, you know, not to eat, consume ultra processed foods and drink sugar sweetened beverages and I give cooking demonstrations. And last week, you know, I'm doing seasonal cooking demonstrations, so it's the spring, so I made asparagus and I roasted asparagus and put some herbs and little garlic and things. And the children loved it. And they were like, you know, they call me Mr. Mike. And they're like, "you know Mr. Mike, some of them were like, I never had asparagus, and this is great, and I'm gonna ask my parents to make this" and it was very satisfying and very fulfilling. And once the summer starts, we go into a full-time curriculum and they want me to teach, develop a course. So, what I was gonna do is take the course that I teach undergraduates, kitchen science, and adopt that for eighth graders and just teach them, teach them all about that. So, it's been, you know, it's been satisfying. So, I'm still involved in cooking. I'm just not in the restaurant and, you know, producing for customers. I took a different path and it's something that I feel strong about.
Aman: Oh wow. I can hear you talk for the next hour. It's so exciting to see this, the stuff you're working on, and it makes sense now where your path has transitioned from how, where you were working, how you ended up on the public health path.
Michael: Yeah.
Aman: You mentioned these food insecurities that we have in our world, and you have been operating within this territory for a while now. What are some ways to solve this around the world? Or what can we start, a listener that might be viewing this podcast, not even as a student, but just as out of curiosity, what are some things we could do to be aware or even start solving this problem?
Michael: You know, I think, you know, investing in local food systems like community gardens. And one of the things that was popular, you know, in the United States during World War II were victory gardens because they were canning a lot of the vegetables and sending 'em to the front during World War II. So, the government asked everyone to plant victory gardens, you know, vegetable garden. They were vegetable gardens in their front yard or their backyard and that supplied the United States with like 30% of their produce, homegrown. And just after the war, that kind of stopped. And it's not, it's not a priority now. And just investing in local systems, community gardens, rooftop gardens, and cutting out food waste. There's like 40% food waste. And in high income countries, that's due to like aesthetics. You know, they're picking the vegetables and you go to the supermarket and everyone wants their produce to look perfect without any imperfections. Yet, when you go to more middle and low income countries, that becomes access of paved roads and refrigeration and just having access to food. So, just infrastructures and like that, you know? If there are some, you know, ugly food rescue programs where even at the farmer's market sometimes they have foods that are imperfect that you can buy. I mean, they still taste the same, they still have the nutritional value. And once you cut those up and start cooking them, you can't tell the difference. But we're just conditioned to buy these like perfectly looking vegetables, which is sometimes it doesn't really make that much sense.
Aman: So, I love how you mentioned earlier about Eastern European themes and similar themes to how in certain areas of the United States that you saw as well. So, I'm curious, what are some public health themes you have noticed in your travels around the world? You have traveled to so many countries, and I'm curious the commonalities within nutrition or public within food and public health.
Michael: So, when I think of, you know, public health, for me it's always nutrition based and I've just witnessed a lot of food insecurity and, you know, access to water, clean water, and the food waste problem again, that I just spoke about, in low and middle income countries and how it differentiate between high income countries and just the export of the Western diet. When I was traveling around and when I meet people, I think when I go to different countries, going to the food markets and eating in restaurants for me is like a direct link into their cultures. So, I start talking to people and meeting people, and I'll go over people's houses and I notice that there's a loss of traditional cooking. People are going for that ultra processed and these fast food establishments are available all over the world and, some people are gravitating towards that. And it's becoming more and more popular. I was in India and there were just McDonald's all over the place, and everywhere I went, I saw signs for Coca-Cola. You know, it's unbelievable. And just the traditional... each ethnic cuisine. Every country has their own unique cuisine. And I think with the globalization and the internet and the influencers that people were losing their heritage, a little bit of traditional cuisines and traditional eating, and with the pace of everything, I think people were losing that gathering where they sit down to meals and they cook together and they shop together and they make a meal, they sit down, they enjoy, they have conversations, and it's just everybody's on the go and grabbing quick bites to eat. And it's been an increase in ultra processed foods and sugar sweetened beverages. And it's disappointing a little bit. And you see that trend all over.
Aman: Very, very insightful points. And it's probably relatable to a lot of listeners as well and on what their diet is like right now based on how these systems have been created. So, in a world where, say the average user might be bogged down with ultra process foods and might not have access to information, how does one find their own diet? How can you locate that?
Michael: So, I think that, you know, you have to be honest with yourself and you have to look inside and like, you know, what do you like that is healthy? You want a diet that is predominantly vegetables and fruits and green leafy vegetables and whole grains. But for me, I found that in the Mediterranean diet, because when I had the chance to live in Italy and in France and Spain, they were eating Mediterranean and I was sampling different foods, and I got to taste and experience what I enjoy eating. So I would be in restaurants, maybe cooking different food, at some point using cream and butter, yet for myself to eat, I would always turn to that olive oil and fresh herbs and fresh vegetables and fish. And I think that you need to experience and taste and expose yourself to different cuisines to find out what you like and what is appropriate for you. Even if you're on the go, there's places where you could buy salads and fresh food and get that instead of turning to the ultra processed foods. And I think it's just tasting what you like and enjoying it and celebrating and enjoying the food that you're eating.
Aman: I'd like to talk a little bit about diseases now with the diets. What is that at the core, the core of diseases you think nutrition has a big role to play at the core of that in today's world?
Michael: Yeah, you know, I see, you know, the high blood pressure, the diabetes, the obesity, and these are all diet related, and lack of exercise and they're all inter correlated. And, with the, again, the ultra processed foods, the high sodium and the fast food with the high sodium, if you're eating that a couple times a week and you're not exercising and you know, the high fat content and french fries and onion rings and fried chicken sandwiches, and it's just this cycle. A lot of people, they're working or they have kids. I look at my family, my brother, my sister-in-law, they both work full time. They have kids, they leave at like seven in the morning. They get home at five or six, you know, you're like exhausted with the commute, then you have to shop and cook. And, sometimes people fall into that routine of just buying the ultra processed foods. But I think that sometimes maybe if you take a little bit or take a weekend day and plan out your meals and shop for the week and pre-cook a couple things, you could pre-cook a couple vegetables and have it in your fridge and heat it up and think about the week what you're going to eat and consume. Consume fish and fruits and vegetables and non-fat dairy. People will eat like yogurt and things like that and sometimes it's high in fat and they'll drink their coffees. They'll buy their coffees and they have whipped cream on them and caramel, and sometimes just things that they're not aware of that are adding to this obesity and high blood pressure and diabetes. And before they know it, they're prediabetes and they don't know how they got there. And it's just that vicious cycle that's hard to break just because of people's schedules and time constraints and other factors that play into life. But I think you need to just take a minute and sit back and try to evaluate it and think about it and plan your time and just try to make it happen.
Aman: Folks hear that, and that's very, the importance of fresh food, fresh ingredients rather than the ultra processed foods adds a lot. It adds life to your days, not only days to your life.
Michael: Yeah. You know, it's so important and fresh vegetables and fruits and using herbs and beans and grains, it tastes wonderful and it's great. It's so much more flavorful and you can actually save money and it's just great. Food for me is one of the great pleasures in life. Having a good meal and eating good food is just a great experience and it improves my day. It puts me in a good mood. I'm happy and I'm smiling and it's wonderful. It just changes everything.
Aman: Speaking of that smiling, what's your comfort food when nobody's looking?
Michael: Well, you know, I love dried pasta. You know, there's different styles of pasta. You know, there's like in northern Italy, they tend to eat fresh pasta a lot, and that's made with eggs. They put eggs in it and olive oil. And as you go to southern Italy, like Rome and Naples, they eat more of a dried pasta, which is wheat and water, and they extrude it and they let it dry. So, dried pasta would be like spaghetti, rigatoni, penne and more fresh pasta up north in like the Emilio Amana region is like fettuccine, papardelle, you make raviolis with fresh pasta, but you know, there's no difference in quality. It's just different styles. Fresh pasta is not better than dry pasta, depends on what you're making. But I like the dried pasta because I like my pasta al dente, which means firm to the bite, it's a little firm. And I can eat pasta and Asian noodles like every day. I love ramen and Chinese noodles. And I love that stuff. It's my favorite food, and bread.
Aman: And bread, I'm sure you got many, many listener's mouths watering right now as well. Speaking about, so let's, rather than favorite food, what's the most exotic thing you've eaten in your travels?
Michael: You know, when I went to Cambodia, I was in Siem Reap and whenever I go to like a different country, I always look for like food tours. I'm fascinated with street food. It tastes great, it's inexpensive and it's vibrant and it's part of the culture. And I always enjoy going on street food tours and wandering around the streets and going to different stalls. It's so exciting for me. And I booked this food tour in Cambodia and we went to different establishments and the last stop, we went to this place that had insects. So, I ate like water bugs and water snake. And then the topper was a deep fried tarantula with chili powder. So, I was very skeptical and I'm like, "Hmm, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I can eat this." I was like, I don't know, you know, I was picking up, I was smelling it, I was pressing on it, I was looking at it. So, the first thing I did was I ate the legs, I pulled the legs off, and I'd bit into it and I was like, "Hmm, it's crunchy. You know what, this tastes like a soft shelf crab, right?" Because you fry the soft crabs that are available. Have you ever had a soft shell crab?
Aman: I might have, I don't remember if it's softshell or a big crab.
Michael: Okay, so the soft shell crabs, you eat the whole crab. Because the crab sheds its shell and then it grows. So, there's a point in the season where they're called softshell crabs and they're harvested. And I'm like, "Wow, this tastes like a soft shelf crab." And if you look at a crab, I mean it looks like an insect. What is that? You know? So, and when I ate the body and the body was crispy on the outside and creamy on the inside, just like the body of a soft shelf crab. And then I finished it once I changed my perception. So, you know, many, many countries throughout the world eat insects. But in America, they're seen as pests and they're not consumed a lot. But I was in Mexico eating crickets on tacos and they're just eaten all over the world. When I was in Cambodia, the man of my tour says that he harvests them in his backyard and he always eats them and how much he loved them. And I just think it's cultural and marketing. Marketing has so much to do with it. Insects are slowly being introduced into the United States. You know, I see like cricket flour, and people are making brownies with cricket flour. And I think, it's only a matter of time before there's a, you know, widespread acceptance, but it's gonna take some time and they're kind of like slowly easing into it. But it's a great source of protein and I've had chocolate covered crickets. And, I think they need to be like disguised a little bit for now for the introduction, like the chocolate covered, or I had chili lime crickets, and they're kind of easing the American population into it, where in many parts of the world, it's already accepted. When I was in Cambodia on the street, they had these like huge round roasters where they would put the insects into them and it would roast them and percolate them out like a popcorn maker, and they would put the insects in bags and then people would just walk and snack on them. So it's widely, widely accepted. But here, you know, you walk into a supermarket and there's all these insect repellants and insect killers and they're seen as pests, you know, so in time.
Aman: Well, very, very different way of thinking in that sense. And it's even opening my mind up to a lot of things. So, you mentioned Mexico, Cambodia, Italy, there's so much going on. If I were to give you a private jet right now and you have to choose one location you can go to tomorrow, where would it be?
Michael: You know, I think it would be to Vietnam, because I love Southeast Asia and I like the weather and I love Vietnamese food. I haven't been there. I'm not one to, I don't go back many places, like I'll go to a place like, you know, I lived in Europe for five years and I haven't been back in 20 years, I'm like, "There's so many places to see that I don't want to continue going back to Italy or going back to France." Like, I wanna travel to other places, experience other cultures and other foods. So, you know, I frequent Vietnamese restaurants down in Chinatown, the food is very fresh. It's like grilled meats and the phos and lots of vegetables and lettuce and dipping sauces. It's light. Very refreshing. And there's a lot of cultural things I wanna see in Vietnam, and I just think it would be a wonderful experience.
Aman: Lovely. So, let's ask you the final question. If you had a magic wand right now and you could solve any one public health issue in our world, what would it be for you?
Michael: You know, I think it would be food insecurity with, you see it all over the world with people. And I think it's wonderful that World Central Kitchen with Jose Andres in Ukraine, how he sets up and they're feeding people and they're helping people and just accessibility and with climate change, how it's affecting crop growing and food access. And there's just so much. And I think it's just such an issue. And people need to eat and so many of us just take your food for granted. You don't realize that, you know, people are going hungry and it's a struggle and they can't put food on the table. And right here in New York City, we have a lot of food insecurity and there were professors, Professor Okana Inaparik were working with I.N. Dogan for a Food to Share app. And yesterday, I was very thrilled, very excited. I received award for efforts in food insecurity. I was the first one to receive the award, and they were working on an app food to share that's developed at New York University that's gonna help curb food insecurity. And, I was honored to be part of that. And I just think that it is all over the world and it's just such a huge problem. And it affects different countries and different populations for different reasons. And, there's so much work to be done there, and hopefully I could make an impact.
Aman: I have no doubt that you'll be in that direction to create substantial change in our globe. Thank you so much for your time, Michael, and for a very, very insightful podcast that we're about to share with the world. And you really opened up my mind to a lot of different perspectives as well.
Michael: Thank you so much.
Aman: Not everyone's perspective yet, but we'll still work on that over time.
Michael: Okay. Thank you so much for having me on.