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Aman Chopra: Folks, welcome back to another episode of the I AM GPH podcast. And today's episode is a treat for all of you if you're interested in leadership, communication, and nonprofits, we have Mentalla Ismail. So Mentalla is a founder and executive director of a non-profit organization called Refuge Collaborative, which is almost running six years strong. Her academic journey has moved from the University of Cincinnati with a Bachelor's of Science in Neuroscience and Biomedical Sciences to a Master's in public health, and now Mentalla's pursuing a DrPH here at NYU. Also, fun fact, which I'm very excited to hear about. Mentalla's given a TED talk, but I don't wanna say anything more. We have Mentalla right here in the studio, Mentalla, welcome to the I AM GPH Podcast.
Mentalla Ismail: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited and thank you for the great intro. Makes me sound cooler than I am, so I appreciate that.
Aman Chopra: Mentalla's lying. Mentalla's pretty cool. So let's, you know, what I'm really curious about, and I wanna start off with this right away. Starting a nonprofit is a dream for so many people that I've interacted with. And I want to know what your journey was. Can you walk us through it? Starting that nonprofit? Where did the idea come from? The thought, the desire, the passion?
Mentalla Ismail: Absolutely. Yeah, so a lot of it stemmed from, you know, my background is an immigrant, so me and my family immigrated here when I was pretty young from Alexandria, Egypt. And we immigrated to Ohio, which is a dream for everybody to immigrate from Egypt to Ohio. And so once we got here there were so many barriers. I didn't know English, so I had to take ESL classes. So me and my brother, we were the only ones in this predominantly white school pretty much that, you know, we looked foreign, and we were the only ones utilizing the ESL teacher. So I credit a lot of my English proficiency to her. She was phenomenal. And so, like growing up, again, like you're navigating the system that you're not used to, whether it's education, whether it's healthcare. And I knew one thing for me was I always wanted to go to college and I always wanted to pursue something in medicine. And we'll talk about that a little later, how like medicine turned into public health. But yeah, always wanted to do that. And so it was pretty devastating to me when I found out, like a day before, when I got to high school, that you had to take an entrance exam like an ACT or SAT, to get into college. I had no idea about that. So that journey, you know, of understanding the American school system and how to navigate that and getting to your dream of pursuing higher education. So once I started University of Cincinnati in 2015, I started volunteering at a local mosque. And when I was there, there were a lot of Syrian refugees. And at the time, as soon as I got to the university, I've kind of never been a sideline player, so I always, I wanted to like jump right in, right? Became a tour guide. I was like repping UC. I got there like 10 days ago. I was like, "This is the best university ever." I joined a bunch of organizations, but there was still that like interest and passion for health, right? I wanna do something, I wanna give back. And when I started calling Doctors Without Borders, I sent emails, I was like, "What can I do?" "I'm a like pursuing higher education, I'm doing my Bachelors" And everybody was like, nothing, you can do nothing because you need a medical degree or you need this like, terminal degree that you don't have yet. So right now you're not very useful to us or to the space, or, that was the message I was getting. And so anyways, still volunteering at the mosque and I was put in charge of working with Syrian refugees. Most of them were adults and a lot of them had questions about, you know, how to get their children to college, how to get their children to high school, to navigate the American educational system. And then they had questions to themselves about like, healthcare, hospitals, insurance. And I was kind of like baffled that these same barriers that I experienced they're also experiencing. And I felt that, you know, they saw me as a resource and I felt I had a lot of privilege being at a university and having all of these like professors that I could talk to and this huge library at my disposal and all this information. And I could really do something and help out with that. And so that's kind of how it started. Started as a student organization. I got a bunch of friends together. I was like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do a mentorship program and we're gonna work with refugees. And then I started cold emailing a bunch of random English second language teachers in that area, in the Cincinnati area. And luckily only one person responded. And I was like, "Hey, my name's Mentalla, I'm a freshman. Do you need mentors for any of your like, ESL or refugee students? And he was like, "Yeah, come in." And it rest was history kind of deal.
Aman Chopra: Wow. Wow. Okay. So there's a lot that's opened up. And congratulations on that journey and getting started. And you know what it's showing me is that there was this go-getter attitude that you had and something that you were very passionate about. And there were all these worlds collided together and you made something out of it. The ones that are toying with an idea right now, right? The other students, someone watching this outside of NYU as well, what would you say is something they should know before starting a nonprofit? What does it take to start something? Because they have heard your story and they'll go, "Yeah, yeah, wow, that was cool." They have their own, why, what would you tell them right now?
Mentalla Ismail: Yeah, I would definitely tell them to act on that intention. So make sure that whatever you want to do, you have that why behind it. And that intention is very pure and very clear and just act. So if I would've like sat there and mapped out the whole thing, I would probably wouldn't have done it because there were so many barriers, right? I didn't think about the public school administration, background checks for college students going into into high schools. I didn't think about any of that. I didn't, I was just like, this seems like a pretty good idea. Like, let's go. And then the other thing too is whatever your idea may be, understanding that you are not the main focus. So for me it was always about turning privilege into action. I felt like even though I had all these barriers in life and obstacles, like they really became opportunities for me. And so I wanted to give that privilege that I had back. And the only way was through action. And so just do and do it with the proper intention. It's the only advice if I had.
Aman Chopra: Do it and do it with the proper intention.
Mentalla Ismail: Yeah, just go for it.
Aman Chopra: Because for you, the passion was immigration, the journey that you went through and you wanted to help, because there are many people, of course, like you, and I'm sure if whoever's watching right now, you might have that for yourself. And with that, I wanna take a step back to that, right? A lot of people, including myself, before even reading about this, I always knew what a nonprofit was. But could you explain what the whole, why are nonprofits so essential? What is a nonprofit organization? Why are they so essential to our world right now?
Mentalla Ismail: Of course. It's actually a great question and I'm sure there are many people more capable than me in answering that. But you know, my understanding a nonprofit is you're giving a service and you're not expecting to profit from it or have a monetary gain from it. And so you're providing this service, it's usually sometimes a charity based service. And so, yeah, for us it was education accessibility, healthcare accessibility, and providing resources to the specific community. And they're so important because it truly is this pathway for accessibility. So most nonprofits provide some sort of service, some sort of resource. And those are so essential to building stronger communities or what more welcoming communities. There's this really nice quote that I really like by Vincent Tinto, who's a professor at Syracuse. And he says that accessibility without resources is no real opportunity. And I think I find that very true and I find that very applicable to nonprofits. Like, if I'm giving you access, but I'm not giving you the resources there, there's no real opportunity there. And so I find that, you know, nonprofits and advocacy and being able to have this sense of leveling the playing field or equity is very important to society. That's my version of nonprofits, so.
Aman Chopra: Okay. And, then are there any non-profits that, you know, you looked up to when you were on the journey? These are my Mount Rushmore of non-profit.
Mentalla Ismail: Mount Rushmore of nonprofits. No, and let's go back to that question that you had about what advice I would give to someone wanting to pursue a nonprofit. I went in not knowing anything about non-profits, right? And I just did it. And it turned into that, that's what I was like doing it and learning about it as I'm going. And even to this day, we're about six years in still learning about it. I literally took a class last semester where my professor, I was explaining about my nonprofit and what I'm doing and my professor was like, you need to restructure some of these things cuz they're not really true to what a nonprofit is. And so I'm still learning. And I think that that should not be a deterrent for anybody that wants to pursue whatever it may be, right? Like, not being an expert in X, Y, Z, I'm not an expert in non-profits, right? I just went out to do something and that's something happened to just be a service that fell into this nonprofit title. But at the end of the day, again, it was that intention for that service.
Aman Chopra: I love it. You know what, one question we had when you were Refuge Collaborative. The word we were all thinking about why? Why Refuge when it is helping, to some extent, refugee is the word we all think of. Why did you choose that word?
Mentalla Ismail: I was really hoping you would ask this question. So when I was, I was like, I hope they asked me what the name means. So I, throughout my whole entire journey, whether it's me immigrating here, education, pursuing public health, I've been seeking refuge through these things, right? I'm seeking refuge in education. I do that a lot. I seeked refuge in the United States when I came here, not because I like was forcibly displaced or anything, but this was, you know, where, where I was going, this is a new space for me. This is where I was going to do X, Y, and Z. And with accessibility, I found that, you know, it's, I want to help others. It's basically about leveling the playing field, right? I'm want to help the same way that I've been able to find refuge in all of the things that I've done, whether it be immigrating or education. I've want to be able to give that back on any level that I can. And so that's why refuge and not refugee because as I've gotten more into this work. Again, I didn't know what I didn't know. And I just, I had that intention. I started, of course, I started working with refugees, but afterwards it became unaccompanied minors, it became undocumented students. It became forcibly displaced individuals that were like seeking asylum. They haven't resettled just yet. So understanding those definitions and how those people all fit under this idea of like seeking refuge. And so yeah, that's....
Aman Chopra: That's beautiful.
Mentalla Ismail: You talked about the TED Talk and the TED Talk was titled Seeking Refuge Through Education, because that's kind of my journey. And the idea behind the nonprofit with education accessibility and healthcare accessibility is that initial blanket of just providing access and providing refuge.
Aman Chopra: That's beautiful.
Mentalla Ismail: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that.
Aman Chopra: It's something so close to your heart and that's what's created this whole..... I'm sure you must have had experiences where people have mispronounced the name. Has that happened multiple times?
Mentalla Ismail: Yes, yes. A lot of people of mispronounce the name, a lot of them just say like, refugee or.... So we have three chapters, right? We have university chapters and two of them are in Ohio. One of them is in Northern Kentucky. And so those chapters are in universities and they 're student led, that was my motivation behind, earlier I said like, I was getting rejected. Cause people didn't think that I had a terminal degree. That there was this kind of motivation to be like, well, look what students can do. And so that's why the model for Refuge is that it's student led and student based, basically, A lot of our current mentors actually say like, refugee, right? Because they have that connotation where we're working with refugees. So the name must be refugee collaborative or like refugee. We have a chapter at University of Cincinnati. So Refugee UC, but it's actually like Refuge UC but I think that's a beautiful moment to like teach, right? Teach something like the difference between refuge, refugee. So I don't find it like offensive or weird.
Aman Chopra: Fair enough. You could share this clip with them, once this podcast goes live.
Mentalla Ismail: Yeah, send this clip to them
Aman Chopra: I'm curious to learn more about you, because I sense leadership and this go-getter mentality and the DrPH course for most of the people that come here is that leadership oriented course. And you have so much, you have so much past leadership experience. How is your intellectual trajectory evolving over time by doing this course specifically?
Mentalla Ismail: Of course, by doing the DrPH? Yeah, that's a great question. So for me, again, yeah, like you said, I've done all this leadership stuff, whether it's nonprofit wise, whether it's like going graduate school and getting a Master's in public health. And I felt like I wanted to delve into the realm of policy. So again, we talk about access and I've resources, and I feel like the bridge between those two is policy. And so I didn't have the skillset or the tools to, I know our G P H motto is shifting the public health paradigm. I didn't have those tools in my toolkit to do that quite yet. Like, I had the motivation, I had the leadership, the want, but to specifically be able to engage on such a global and population level, I felt like I needed more training. And a PhD route is very research heavy. So I didn't want to pursue that because I was so intent on this initiatives and create, designing and implementing programs. That's not the word, but, but yeah. So that was what I felt like the DrPH would help, would equip me with. And you know, I've been here one semester and so far it's been going pretty well.
Aman Chopra: Something I was reading about is this concept of being a change agent. What does that mean? What does that mean to you? How would you describe it?
Mentalla Ismail: It's a really, really, really good question. Okay, being a change agent, I think to me, being a change agent is just going out there and doing something. We often like talk about things and we often like, have these ideas and theories and even like, you know, I'm not digging at research. Research is great. It's very vital to the work we do. But we sit there and we contemplate and we research and we have project aims and objectives, but we don't really do, because at the end of the day, it's just like all of these things that we've done and we've written about and we've read and whatever, but there's nothing that you were actually physically, tangibly doing for someone else, Right? And I think that's what being a change agent is. It's like I'm going out there and I'm doing something. Of course, it's not bad to have the knowledge to know what you're doing or how to better implement this initiative or program or what is needed. That's really important too, right? Because you don't wanna just do, and then that's not what's needed for a certain population or community. But being a change agent is really about doing, whether you wanna mobilize a group of people or you yourself, you have this idea, we're gonna go back to. The students that are sitting out there and they have this idea and just acting on it. That's what being a change agent means to me.
Aman Chopra: Taking action.
Mentalla Ismail: Taking action, yes.
Aman Chopra: I feel that this taking action thing, it applies to students and people all around the world at this time. There's this overthinking mindset and this concept of a change agent is perhaps more action oriented. A word or a term for taking action perhaps.
Mentalla Ismail: Sure.
Aman Chopra: That's what I understood from it.
Mentalla Ismail: That's what I went by too. So that's pretty good, yeah.
Aman Chopra: Well there's this thing of constantly evolving. It seems like you're shedding layers and evolving every, every year, every month probably. And since coming to New York, what is that? What questions do you ask yourself every day to constantly evolve or every other, whenever the time comes?
Mentalla Ismail: Of course. No. So I'm a big quote person. So another quote that I like lived by again, since I would say being a freshman in undergrad, was by Maya Angelou. And it goes something along the lines of like, do the best you can until you know better. And when you know better, do better, right? And I felt like, you know, sometimes we all get into this groove of like, wanting to be perfect at this or wanting to get it right away. And we missed that part of evolving. And with evolving and with change, you learn so much. And I felt like, again, when I started my nonprofit in 2017, I was a very different person than now when I'm leading this nonprofit. It's 2023, I've learned so much. But I believe that the person now, the 2023 person would not have started the nonprofit the same way that 2017 Mentalla did. So I think that that, you know, there's a lot in that unknown or a lot in that involvement, because you don't wanna just, what's the point of being the best version of yourself? Like just right away? No, not what's the point just in general. But what's the point of being the best version of yourself right away? There's, there's nothing learned from that. And so that's what I tell myself. I live by that quote. And I don't get too hard on myself when there are these points of like, rejection or not understanding or, you know, lack of being my best self.
Aman Chopra: Can you take us to a moment of, that we all go through rejection in some way, shape, or form, right? Well, any stories that stand out to you in this constant evolution process?
Mentalla Ismail: Hmm. Wow. Yeah. Definitely. So starting the nonprofit, right? Great. Started as a student organization and then getting to that point of like, okay, well, I want it to be more than that. I got rejected a lot by different nonprofits in the area for collaboration, you know, in order to take it to that next level, right? And so I was stuck where I was like, is this gonna always just be a student organization because I'm getting so many nos because the foundation for it wasn't as evolved as it needed to be, or it wasn't as solid as, you know, people, investors would like it to be, your stakeholders would like it to be. And I think that's, again, that's where the idea of evolvement comes in. And I had to kind of understand why they said no. And then take that and turn it into, all right, this is an area for growth, or I need to word this better. I need to do this better. I mean, something needs to change. And so I think that for me, I always look back at that rejection because it really was this thing where I was like, I invested so much time into this. No way. Like, it's not gonna go anywhere? And I had a choice, right? Like, all right, cool, it's not gonna go anywhere. Good time. It was wonderful. Or like, all right, let me try again. And it definitely will probably maybe fail again, but let me just keep going. And that's where I was at.
Aman Chopra: Keep going. Change agent, take action. It's so evident in your psyche and the way you think on a daily basis. Admirable, truly. TED talk.
Mentalla Ismail: TED Talk.
Aman Chopra: Let's talk TED Talk.
Mentalla Ismail: Let's do it.
Aman Chopra: How does one even get on a TED Talk process? What was it all about for you?
Mentalla Ismail: Honestly, it took me by surprise as well. So it was really funny. And it's funny how life works sometimes because TED Talks were something that I had been watching ever since I was in high school, right? You would do these reports on Ted Talks, your teachers make you watch these and you do them. And a lot of things I go back to, my freshman year of undergrad, cuz that was such like a transformative moment for me as a person, as a leader, as all of these things, right? And I, after class, I would always go back to my dorm and watch at least one TED talk every day, right? And so I was approached basically by the TEDx team at the University of Cincinnati after I had graduated. So I was doing my Masters and they just sent me an email and they were like, we would love to have you like this. You know, we would love to have you talk about Refuge and your work with Refuge UC and what it means like a refugee education and education accessibility. And so I was really surprised. Cause again, it was this thing that I always had on my bucket list like I really wanted to do. It was great, right? You get it, you get that and you are like, yes! But then you do the work and it was like a three month training period where you get with a coach, and this leadership coach, or not leadership coach, sorry, the speaking coach talks you through like your points. So I'm someone who talks and when it's something you started, you have so much to say about it. Like, I wanted to give my story since the minute I was born until that moment where I was on stage, but it was like a 15 minute talk, right? They only give you an allotted amount of time and you have to like fit your key points into that amount of time. And I was like, no, I can't scratch any of this. All of this is so important to like my story. And it is about kind of what do you want your audience to know about this work? What's the call to action, right? Like, what do you want them to leave with? And so I really had to take some time and really think about that. And while I could go on for like days, this podcast can be three hours long if we just talked about Refuge. That wasn't the point of the TED talk, it was more about like, this community is in Cincinnati, the refugees were there, resettling there. First, I wanted people to be aware of that. Like they didn't know. So I wanted you to know that this is happening. I also wanted you to know that there was something being done about it. And there was the student led initiative and project and people like putting their time and volunteering. And I also wanted you to know that you could do the same. And you don't have to be a student. You yourself could just say, I'm gonna take some time and I'm gonna volunteer. I'm gonna do this because there's this community and I want to make a welcoming environment for them. And so that was the basis of my talk and really getting people to understand the resiliency behind. So, working with refugees has been probably one of the best things I've ever done. It's been so wonderful and I've learned so much from them. And I don't think I could ever gain that from a classroom or from like a professor, from nothing. Nothing could have taught me what they've taught me. And again, they're high school students, so the resiliency and the pure "just want to learn" even given everything they've been through and given systems that are designed to work against them, just given all of it, there's still that resiliency and it's beautiful and it's admirable and it's wonderful. It's one of the best things I've ever gotten to witness. So yeah, so that was the kind of the idea of a TED talk or my TED talk at least. And so I practiced a lot. I wrote so many versions of the talk and yeah, and then came the outfit, right? Like, what do you wear?
Aman Chopra: The hardest part
Mentalla Ismail: The hardest part I'm actually, so I'm really big into like street wear. So I was really happy to move to New York because I love street wear, love fashion. And I was over here thinking like, oh, I'm gonna just wear, I like to wear a lot of baggy clothes. I was like, I'm just gonna wear that with like sneakers and whatever. That's, that's, you know, I could of. But again, like your outfit has to kind of match a little bit the tone of your talk and it all has to make sense. So, yeah it all worked out. So that was pretty good.
Aman Chopra: Congratulations on that TED talk.
Mentalla Ismail: Thank you.
Aman Chopra: We're gonna link the TED talk in the description as well for the viewers. Now look Mentalla, I feel like you have a very robust set of experiences, change agent vibe that have come through that environment, right? This is a change agent, but to us it seems meticulously planned, right? So I feel asking you this question might not go anywhere. But I'm curious to, it's a very parent type question, right? What is the end goal of all of this? Like what are you building, perhaps even the next five years you're in this program right now? What do you see as a vision?
Mentalla Ismail: Yeah. Wow. That's a great question. I think my dad asked me that like 10 minutes ago before I got here. So I thought I had this really clear plan of what I wanted for myself, my life and you know, like you said, Refuge was all an accident with how it grew or what it became. But, after starting that work, my plan for Refuge is to take it nationally. I would like for there to be a Refuge chapter in every state. I would love for there to be a Refuge chapter in at least two universities in every state, right? Partnering with those local high schools and the public school districts. That is something that I enjoy doing and would like to do on a national level. And then I would like for that work to affect policy, you know, as it pertains to education accessibility, and even health promotion for refugee and displaced persons in the United States. That's what I would like for Refuge. And what I would like for me, I'm not really sure. That is the work that I love doing. So I would undoubtedly have some hand in it. But my career aspirations and doing this DrPH program is, you know, contrary to popular belief, it's not just to have like doctor before my name, which pretty cool, right?
Aman Chopra: Super cool.
Mentalla Ismail: Super cool. Let's fingers crossed we get through the program so we can make that happen. But it's more about like, I want to have an impact And I want to be something that's replicable for students, especially students that don't have terminal degrees. So I want there to be some sort of, I dunno what, something I'm able to build, whether it's outside of Refuge or within Refuge, that students can get that type of training that we just talked about, right? You understand the evolvement, the leadership, the impact working with diverse and underserved communities. I want that for students. Yeah. I hope that kind of answered it. I feel like it didn't, but I hope it did.
Aman Chopra: I feel like you should watch this five years from now and see what happens.
Mentalla Ismail: Yeah.
Aman Chopra: I'm very excited to see it. And I have nothing but high hopes and wish you nothing but the best on this journey because it's awesome to see how it's evolved and where it's going. I'm super excited.
Mentalla Ismail: Thank you.
Aman Chopra: Congratulations on everything.
Mentalla Ismail: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Aman Chopra: With that said, yeah, thank you for being on the podcast. Folks, thanks for tuning into another episode. Thank you Mentalla and we'll see you in the next episode everyone Take care.