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EP127 Health Equity and Social Justice with Dr. Anna-Michelle McSorley
Aman Chopra: Folks, welcome back to another episode of the I AM GPH podcast. Today we have with us, Dr. Anna-Michelle McSorley. Anna-Michelle is a Post-doctorate scholar at the NYU School of Global Public Health eithin the Center of Anti-Racism, Social Justice and Public Health. Also abbreviated as, CASJPH. Check out our previous interview. She has a particular focus on sociopolitical conditions that produce health inequities among members of Puerto Rican population living in the States and Puerto Rico. As well as the residents of numerous US territories and so much more, I can keep going on in the intro. But what we are fascinated by, is that Anna-Michelle has been a part of a lot of peer-reviewed publications. And we're excited to hear all about her journey and how you present yourself in the public health world. Anna-Michelle, welcome to the I AM GPH podcast.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really grateful to be here.
Aman Chopra: Awesome to have you, awesome to have you. Let's get started. I'm curious, you know, take us back to one of the papers. So when we were researching and trying to discover who Anna-Michelle is, there was this thing about, writing a paper about Hurricane Fiona. Can you walk us through what that process was like? How did you find the gaps and what was missing? 'Cause that's a very interesting way to present how you presented that.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Absolutely. Hurricane Fiona happened in a time where I was just transitioning into my postdoc here at NYU. I am a Nuyorican, so I have a deep connection to Puerto Rico. I actually spent a good chunk of my childhood living between Puerto Rico and New York. So I'm constantly in contact with my family. It's home to me. So we keep up with the news in our home. And it was all over the media, what was happening with Hurricane Fiona. But what I felt was missing, was that sociopolitical side of the lens that I bring, to looking at public health issues and public health problems. And so the media was highlighting the destruction in Puerto Rico but what was not being highlighted, was how the lack of infrastructure and the underinvestment in infrastructure, whether it be public health, whether it be access to clean water, whether it be electricity, there was this underinvestment in making sure that it was stabilized after the events of Hurricane Maria, which were five years prior to Hurricane Fiona. So while Hurricane Fiona was only a category one hurricane and I say "only"", right?A hurricane is devastating. But compared to Maria, which was a five, there's a comparison there to be made. It made a huge impact for the folks in Puerto Rico because home hadn't been taken care of yet. The basic infrastructure hadn't been supported. And I could see a link between under investment of our US federal dollars, in the territory and the lack of infrastructure. And then the public health needs that weren't being met, as a result.
Aman Chopra: There's something interesting, right. So first off, fascinating how you have identified that and it's passionate. It's something that you're passionate about. What stood out to me was, the concept of research. A lot of students that come in and it's a part of academia where we have to find the missing link, the missing gap. It feels like you were investing a lot of time into investigating that. What is that process like for someone that's writing this research paper? How do you go into the nitty-gritty and find, that's what I'm looking for?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Research, research. So I remember, I first started in research in undergrad. I was a community college transfer. I knew that I wanted to go to San Diego State University. I was at San Diego City Community College.
Aman Chopra: Okay.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: And I reached out to professors that would be willing to talk to me, in different research labs, to get research experience. Because I had heard, in like, an early career class, that research experience was really, really important. I had no idea what it was. It was just this romantic research. "Ooh, I could be a researcher. It's really important." And I was really fortunate enough to have access to an opportunity to work with Professor Vanessa Malcarne. She's still my mentor today, love her.
Aman Chopra: Nice.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: And she introduced me to the world of research. And what that looked like at San Diego State, in the psych lab, was lots of computers. Lots of working online, lots of data analysis, literature reviews and looking for peer-reviewed articles and getting familiar with what that world was, right. I didn't really, fundamentally understand that there was a difference between gray literature and peer-reviewed literature as a 20 year old undergrad. And so that's what research looked like there. Was getting familiar with that world. And that's largely what I continue to do today. Spend a lotta time sitting at my computer. Crunching numbers and looking up articles.
Aman Chopra: You mentioned this thing, gray literature and peer-reviewed literature. Can you clarify?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Yes, I'm happy to explain what that is. So gray literature is something you would more find, like a journal article, something that's published online from a blog or the New York Times, right? It can vary greatly. And so you want to think very carefully about the quality of those sources. Of course, an article you find in the New York Times is gonna have a greater evidence base, right? It's a really, really highly regarded publication. Then, you know, your best friend's blog, where they're talking about something that they find really, really interesting. But it's still kind of in that gray literature space. Peer-reviewed literature is what we're producing here at NYU and what is produced at academic institutions across the country. It's this really rigorously investigated, published work that has gone through a process of also being reviewed by other folks in the academy. So they're saying, okay, you did your research well. And when we submit our articles for publication, it goes through this peer-reviewed process, where other researchers will check it out and say, "Hey, okay, we think this is legit." And you have the opportunity to revise, based on their feedback. And then finally, it makes it into the publication world. So it's a very intense process, that takes quite a bit of time. And there's a place for both, right. Because a journalist needs to get the information out there right now.
Aman Chopra: Yes.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: So there's no way that it could go through this extensive, rigorous, peer-reviewed process. We need to get really high quality science out there. And so we can take a little more time, to turn the machine and ensure that we are providing the best evidence base possible. So there's a place for both.
Aman Chopra: Okay. That by the way, is a tidbit, short masterclass for anyone in academia that needs to write a paper.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Oh, well, thank you.
Aman Chopra: I learned so much from that. And I'm writing a paper right now as well, so it's very interesting.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Awesome.
Aman Chopra: So there's this one thing that I'm curious about, right? For you, it was your passion and you had experience in researching and identifying a problem. How do people find their own research question? I'm sure there's people that come to the Public Health School, from all walks of life: different mindset, different passions, different interests. Where do they start when it comes to research? Because oftentimes what I hear folks complaining about or folks having an issue with, is that, "I loved this, so I started my research topic in it but now I don't like it anymore because I have to do research on it."
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. yeah.
Aman Chopra: What is that like?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: I think, for me, I can speak about my personal experience and where my research questions come from. Or where I hope that they come from. I think that my PhD is not for me. My PhD is for my community. That's who my PhD is for. They made sure that I got here. They uplifted me, so that I could gain the skills to be able to answer the questions that they need answered, applying these research skills. So, my sort of, advice or the way that research questions come to me, is from that passion in my belly. And that passion in my belly is driven by my community who put it there. And that's how the question comes. It's what needs to be addressed and answered, for the folks whose day-to-day lives are being impacted by real issues. Real structural stressors that sound very, very abstract but have a concrete impact on your day-to-day life. And so I would say that's where my research questions come from. That's where I try to have them come from. And of course, as we gain more and more training in this space and in this world, our mentors inform the way that our research is driven as well, right? We get a greater understanding of how to craft a research question more masterfully, to address the needs of the community, right? And that's where the training that I've gained and the fire in my belly come together to create the question.
Aman Chopra: Wow. So the community brought me here, hence I serve the community back. That's a great way to look at it. You have your personal projects as well on the side. How do you do this balancing act with, research for the community, which is important to you but we also like our art to some degree. Everyone has their interests. Is there something like that for you?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Oh, yes, like, creative avenues. They overlap with academia because I'm in this space. And they might be considered a little bit dorky but honestly, so one of my biggest creative outlets is my book club.
Aman Chopra: Okay.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: So I have an Anti-Colonialism Collective Book Club. And I guess I should say, our book club. We've created the space together. And it's folks from all different backgrounds, community members, public health professionals, other academics. It started during the Covid-19 virtual world.
Aman Chopra: Okay.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: And so it still remains a virtual book club. So I have folks from all over the country, all over the world really, sometimes log in to this book club. And we have conversations about books that we wouldn't traditionally read in public health spaces. And so what do I mean by that? One of the books that we just finished reading, was, "The 1619 Project."
Aman Chopra: Okay.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: And that is a book that is highly controversial in the media right now. And we have taken it upon us, to be rebellious readers. And read books that may be on banned book list but talk about the realities of racism and the history of slavery in this country and the implications that that has for the health of our communities. That is a big creative outlet for me. As strongly academic and dorky as that sounds, rebellious reading is a way in which I get to, sort of, exercise that.
Aman Chopra: Wow, that's yours and folks, whoever's listening, there might be something different for any other person as well.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Well, yeah and the book club is open. So the fabulous thing is, we have an interest forum that folks can find on the Center's website. They can go ahead and sign up if they're interested in engaging in a discussion on these topics.
Aman Chopra: Yeah.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: It's really hard to find spaces where you can talk about these sorts of things. For example, we had a teacher from Florida join in last month's book discussion and said, "I'm watching these books being ripped off the bookshelves of my libraries and of my classrooms."
Aman Chopra: Wow.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: "And I can log in here to talk about them with someone."
Aman Chopra: Wow. We'll link it in the description, your book club.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Awesome, yes.
Aman Chopra: For those that are interested. So it came to life because of the pandemic. You, again, identified, this is missing in the world and then the book club came to life through the pandemic?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Well, one, I was sitting at home and watching, we were all watching what was happening, on the news, right. And the summer of 2020, lots of us will evoke it as a meaningful shift, right. We saw the protests of Black Lives Matters. We saw the meaningful impact and the disproportionate death in black and brown communities, as a result of Covid-19. And I think people were at home watching this and paying attention in a way that they hadn't before. And I often think of things through a historical contextual lens. I try to bring that flavor into the public health space. And I saw this need for us to read these texts and inform ourselves. And I was doing it on my own and thinking a bunch of thoughts in my head and thought, "I wonder how many other folks are out there, doing this on their own, thinking thoughts in their head, wanting to share that and wanting to come into community to do that." And I mean, what other better time to be in community than when we're feeling completely isolated at home? We don't wanna be further isolated in our own mind, with our own little book. And then, the book club's about to turn two now.
Aman Chopra: Congratulations.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: We've had two years of meeting in community and talking about books that are largely banned across the country.
Aman Chopra: How lovely. So they're banned across the country, in terms of they are not available in most places. So how do you find those books?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: So, I don't know if you've seen a lot of the recent media coverage that's been coming out about states increasingly passing bans against critical race theory or the African-American... AP classes that are offered in schools. And lots of conversations about books that should and shouldn't be in the classroom and available to students in public libraries. And I believe there are over 20 states now that have passed some sort of form of legislation or ban on particular content that they don't want to see in the classroom. Our book club emerged before these sweeping book bans, so it seems very timely, like we were catching onto something.
Aman Chopra: Okay.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: But the way we got the list of the books that we read, was crowdsourcing. So it's the members in our book club who want to read, uplift the books that they think are really revolutionary, highlight a lot of what's missing from our public health education, from conversations in classrooms. And we take a vote. So it's a very democratic book club. We vote, that's how the book gets selected. And then we come together in community once a month. Last Tuesday of every month, to talk about it.
Aman Chopra: Wow. I sense a lot of community in everything you're mentioning.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: I love people.
Aman Chopra: I'm curious, you know what stood out to me? You mentioned mentors twice, right now. And I'm sure some people might not even have a mentor. Some people are in search of a mentor. Some people don't know how to maintain a mentor relationship, perhaps. What was that whole journey like for you? How would you advise people, when it comes to mentors?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: When it comes to mentors, they're absolutely key. And they have been a crucial part of my journey, all along the way. As I mentioned, I will mention her again, Dr. Vanessa Malcarne. She's still a huge resource in my life. I call her when I have a stressful career decision to make. When I've had a weird situation in putting together a publication that I couldn't understand. She's always been a resource. I call her a mentor now but at the time, I didn't realize that that's what I was forming, this mentorship relationship, right. I reached out, she was available and there was a good connection and a fit. So in that situation, I wasn't yet in an academic space and equipped to know what a mentor was, how to find one, what it meant. And that relationship ended up coming to fruition, in a way that I really needed it to. And of course that's because my mentor knew what mentors were and how important it was to show up for, especially, first generation community college transfer students. She understood the value of being that person for students. So she very much nurtured and facilitated that mentor/mentee relationship. And then as I kept progressing in my career, I started to learn tips for how to identify a potential mentor. So looking to academics who have similar interests in your space. Who are publishing on things that you find to be important, that can shape your work and the way you think of research questions and the way you approach the work. Folks who put themselves out there as wanting to mentor students, they show up to the networking events, right. They are present. They are willing to volunteer to facilitate a student club. Those are the folks who are wanting to participate and engage in a mentored relationship. Unfortunately, they're also the ones that are usually overburdened by a ton of students who are asking to be their mentor. But that's, you know, that's why they're really good at it.
Aman Chopra: Absolutely. And there is something where there's a connection, right. There's an aligning value.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Yes.
Aman Chopra: And I'd like to hop onto this part, when I went on your website, I read this one thing, your website clearly states, "I study how political structures produce health inequities." Very simple, straightforward pitch. This is who Anna-Michelle is. How does one refine that, right? So for example, a lot of people, "What would you like to do in public health? Oh, I kinda wanna serve this, I kinda wanna serve that." Very crystal clear pitch. How does this develop over time when you meet people? How do you come to this pitch for yourself?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: I think you just mentioned what's key. It happens over time. I'm so very happy that you find that one liner clear and easy to understand. That was very difficult to generate and took time. It's really coming into your own and maturing into the type of scholar that you wanna be. And identifying what that overarching theme is, that cuts across the work that you do. And I really sat with the work that I had done, the work that I see myself doing, right. A little bit of vision boarding. And thought about what would be a common thread, if I were an outsider looking in on this. That kind of pulls and weaves the whole thing together. And that's how that statement came to be. So I think, thinking through the work that has been done, the work you wanna do and then looking back to see where that commonality lies, is a great way to do that little pitch. You know, funny enough, in this world of social media and TikTok, folks on TikTok are doing an awesome job about this, all the time. Conveying things in very short soundbites. So engaging with that media, is also an excellent way to find that way to communicate a complex public health problem, in a way that's more accessible. Using resources from outside the world of public health, I find, more in creative spaces, can be really helpful in generating clearer ways to communicate with the community, what it is that we do.
Aman Chopra: Lovely. There's an element of branding that goes into this, right?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Of course.
Aman Chopra: Presenting yourself.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Of course.
Aman Chopra: So how would you view branding? What are the most important elements of branding to you?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: So I'm not a branding expert. And I think I've been to one professional workshop, where I was told branding is important and the way you're gonna do that, is by having a LinkedIn account. And I was told that it was really important to get that together. So I'm not an expert by any means. I can only speak from the experience that I've had in generating it. I think authenticity is the way to go.
Aman Chopra: Wow.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Right. So when I think branding, I'm thinking, how can I portray myself to the world in a way that really lets folks into who I am? And that also requires a great deal of vulnerability. It's very difficult. Very difficult to let people in that way and sort of muster that vulnerability to own who we are and who we wanna be, especially when we see so many external messages that may be contrary to who it is that we see ourselves as and who we wanna be. And there are times where we need to claim that space unapologetically and say, "You know what, outside world, you may not necessarily think that you're ready for me but you are. I'm gonna unapologetically claim where I'm standing and see who else is about that." And interestingly enough, I find that people come and really enjoy the authenticity. And they're like, "Oh, thank you for saying that." Or "We've been looking for someone to make a connection between the political world and health. And the way you look at questions is really interesting." And so it starts off being really, really scared and vulnerable but always true to yourself. And you'll get there.
Aman Chopra: That was actually the answer to my next question. The vulnerability, right. How can a student find their why? How can they unapologetically be themselves? So essentially, if I hear it correctly, put yourself in environments constantly and it will come to you.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Yes, yes. I do think that there's a matter of knowing and I think I heard the dean mention this in one of her talks about choosing your spaces in which you want to be vulnerable, right? Because your story belongs to you. It's not necessarily everyone else's to own. So I will also caution that we need to be comfortable with what we're sharing and the level of vulnerability that we're okay with. And here's another place where time comes into play. With time, that will also reveal itself.
Aman Chopra: Wow. Let's transition. Okay. I love that part. I love that. Your transition to NYU. You have had a long journey. You have moved from the West Coast and now you're over here. And I'm curious to know what brought you over here?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: What brought me to New York?
Aman Chopra: Yeah.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: So I'm originally a New Yorker. I think I mentioned earlier, I'm a Nuyorican. I was born in Bushwick. So this is the Bushwick of the 1980s and 1990s. So not the Bushwick people are familiar with today. And I was really excited when I was coming back to New York, to come back home and then realized, "Oh, wait a minute, I can't go back home because the neighborhood has completely shifted, right." But that was a big drive and motivator for coming back to New York — was, now that I understood that I was in this space where I had all these training and all these skills, I could bring them back to a place that helped raise me. And actually serve the communities that are in these spaces.
Aman Chopra: I love it. And then how did NYU come about for you?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: The Center for Anti-Racism, Social Justice and Public Health, was brand spanking new. It was just announced. And I was at the first Center to study racism, specifically as a public health issue over at UCLA, which is under the direction of Dr. Chandra Ford, the Center for the Study of Racism, Social Justice and Health. And Dr. Chandra Ford is the first scholar to introduce critical race theory into the public health literature.
Aman Chopra: Wow, okay.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: So I took her classes. I was, you know, educated in that space. And knew that when I transitioned onto the next step, I wanted to be in a similar type of environment. And I thought, "Oh my God, the universe is aligning. Literally, there's a brand new Center for anti-racism launching. I'm ready to head into postdoc life. I wanna come come back home to New York to family. This is just like, too good to be true." And I got an interview and I got the job, which is more of the stars aligning, too good to be true.
Aman Chopra: Love to hear that. Tell me about, the Center's brand spanking new, it's still coming to fruition.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: It's still forming, yep.
Aman Chopra: At least at the time of this recording. Because who knows what will happen next year.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Oh, that is so true.
Aman Chopra: The amazing things y'all are gonna do. So what are you working on at the Center right now?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: So, at the Center right now, I have several different projects that I'm engaging in. I think my favorite part is working with the research assistants and student workers that are part of the Center. I have the opportunity to work with first year and second year master students, to support some of the work I do. And they have been helping me to expand some of my dissertation work, in which I looked at data systems, based out of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to assess what their coverage of Puerto Rico was within those systems. And so, when I say public health monitoring and surveillance systems, what I mean by that, are things like, the National Health Interview Survey, which is a probability based survey that's conducted. Puerto Rico's not included in that. But that provides really essential public health data about the status of morbidity and mortality in the population. But we don't have access to those data for Puerto Rico. So that's what this project has been. Has been, actually quantifying the gaps, right? We often see, at the conclusion of a publication, we don't have sufficient data. The data are limited. I was frustrated that that was the conclusion we landed on and decided, well, let's figure out why the data are limited. Where are they missing? And how can we fill those gaps? And that's one of the primary research projects that I've been getting support with at the Center and working with my students, Betty and Janu.
Aman Chopra: Congratulations, Betty and Janu.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Oh, thank you, they're awesome.
Aman Chopra: Last question. It's kind of to get a perspective on how your mind is working right now. It's called a magic wand question. We ask it to a lot of our guests.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Okay.
Aman Chopra: If I give you a magic wand, you have one public health concern in the world that can, poof, disappear tomorrow, what would it be for you?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Oh, Lord. A magic wand, right. And it actually works?
Aman Chopra: Only one. I know there's many, we all have multiple passions. What's the one focus for you right now?
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Racism. I don't want to give the illusion that the magical wand can fix it. I will select it as the issue to highlight because that's what our Center is uplifting and working to tackle. But I don't think that a magical wand is gonna do it. I think it's gonna require us coming together, to truly address it at its core, for the structuring issue that it is in public health.
Aman Chopra: Powerful. Anna-Michelle, thank you so much.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: Thank you so much.
Aman Chopra: For joining us on this episode.
Anna-Michelle McSorley: I really appreciate it.
Aman Chopra: Folks, thanks for tuning into another episode. We'll see you in the next one.