EP138 Beyond the Resume: Public Health Career Q&A with Meagan Dugan and Gabby Sanes

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EP138 Beyond the Resume: Public Health Career Q&A with Meagan Dugan and Gabby Sanes

Meagan: Hi everyone. Welcome to a special episode of I AM GPH podcast. We are here from the Wasserman Career Center. My name is Meagan Dugan. I'm a Senior Assistant Director at Wasserman. I work specifically with grad students and employers. Work with the lovely GPH students and I'm here with my colleague.

Gabby: Hi y'all. Gabby Sanes is here. She, her, ella pronouns and I'm also a Senior Assistant Director over at the Wasserman Center handling mostly the programming and data reconciliation side of things. And I'm also a GPH Wasserman on site coach. Very happy to be here with y'all today.

Meagan: So, first we're gonna explain a little bit about, you know, what career coaching looks like, how you can get it, especially with us. We are the two main career coaches for GPH, for our grad students. And then our colleague Nia is for undergrads. So Gabby, you know, how can students make one, like an appointment with us and what can they receive during a career coaching appointment?

Gabby: Oh, this is such a great question. 'Cause I feel like coaching is a resource that's, you know, when students find out about it, they come to us and it's so high in demand. So a GPH career coaching appointment would basically be an opportunity whether you're undergrad or grad, to meet one-on-one and get individualized guidance with a career coach. You're able to strategize about basically any question from, I don't know what I wanna be when I grow up, to now I got multiple offers from multiple companies and I wanna make sure I'm making the right decision for myself. So definitely if you are someone who thrives off, you know, thought partnership, soundboard, having someone to just bounce ideas off of, or someone to just guide you and provide support along the way. And feel like you are not alone in this very intense process that is finding a job. Definitely reach out to the Wasserman Center, leverage our career coaching resources and meet our amazing coaches. 'Cause at least I think we're great. So you should just meet us and find out for yourself.

Meagan: Yeah, and you can always check the website, the GPH website for like the most accurate days and times in which we are onsite at GPH. And then you also are able to meet with us at Wasserman or virtually. There's a lot of options. So meet with us. We would love to have you. So we do have some submitted questions from students that we will get into and chat through. The first one is, you know, the job market is terrible. And I have many friends telling me that they've applied to hundreds or even thousands of jobs and haven't gotten any offers. To this student, they are, you know, submitting online applications and it doesn't seem like that might be the most effective method to getting a job. And so are there any other methods that we would recommend for them navigating the job search process?

Gabby: This is such a great question and I feel like we get it all the time. Like what am I doing wrong? Like I feel like I'm doing all the things. Definitely, I tell students like first, you know, you're doing all the right things in terms of, you know, you are applying, you know. You are taking the initiative, you're gathering documents. So I always try to make sure that they have a firm understanding of what are the strategies they're taking at that point. Let's evaluate that. And see where we might be doing things right. Or where we might have to pivot. Right, I never like to say that they're doing something wrong. 'Cause there's never a wrong approach. To the job search, Like even if you're Googling jobs in Tri-state area, at least you're getting somewhere, right? But when you come to coaching and when you're talking with a career coach, we try to talk about like making sure that you're staying organized. You know, do you have your, what do we call it? Like the spreadsheet? Like are you keeping a spreadsheet or do you write down the potential jobs on like a Google document? And just stay organized 'cause it can get overwhelming. And then depending on, you know, at what point are you not hearing back? If you're not getting any hits, like no one's calling you for interviews, then let's reevaluate your application documents, right? Like that's the starting point. Let's see like what we can update? Are we tailoring it to the job? Are we getting interviews and just not getting offers? Alright, let's reevaluate our interview strategies, right? It's all about shifting the mindset, right? What would you say?

Meagan: No, I agree. I also think for me it's quality over quantity. Like yes, I agree. You know, the market does impact if you're gonna get a job or not, but taking that extra time and instead of just mass applying to hundreds of thousands of jobs, taking that time that you're spending doing that and really being very intentional with the jobs that you are applying to really tailoring your resume and cover letter to those particular jobs. Making sure that that's a job that you want and not just just to have a job. I think that those are all things that I especially in my coaching sessions, kind of like try to prioritize because we've all had a job search, it's very stressful. And so how are you making it the most like thoughtful process it could be. Also, I always like to highlight, how are you staying motivated and how are you rewarding yourself? Because it can be a very devastating process. And so how to stay motivated, you know, thinking about ways in which you can reward yourself for even sending that application, similar to what Gabby was saying before you doing something is a step in the right direction. So really taking all that into account when thinking about the application process and how you could be doing things differently. I think taking a step back, slowing down, being very intentional with how you're applying, and then evaluating, again, like Abby was saying, where are we in this process? Are we hitting no hits? Are we getting interviews? Where is that discrepancy? And then finding ways to kind of navigate that moving forward.

Gabby: No, I love it, it's definitely, I like that you said quality over quantity. And I love the reward 'cause I tell my students smart goals. Smart goals, like if you are currently someone that feels like they have to lock themself in a coffee shop for four hours and get all these applications done, okay that's one approach. But if your ultimate goal and their long-term goal, like we say is getting the job or getting the internship, what are some smaller goals and action items that you can take to reach that goal? Because if getting your full-time job, you're gonna complete until after your second year of grad school or after your four years of undergrad, right? That's a long way to wait, a long time to wait to feel productive. So like what are some smaller action items you can take? You know, is it drafting that resume? Is it drafting that cover letter? Is it making that list with a career coach? And then the action items that you can take, schedule a career coaching appointment, right? You know, editing the document based on the feedback. It's just that small goals and then always reward my go-to reward, you know, grab myself a cup of coffee or get my nails done or you know, celebrate with my friends. But definitely making it more accessible, digestible, attainable. Just it makes the process so much less daunting.

Meagan: Yeah, don't wait till the end is essentially what we're saying. Take many steps along the way to make it feel much more productive and then it will keep you, you know, propelling in the right direction so that you find a job. Yeah. I think we hit the nail on the head there. If I do say so myself .

Gabby: True, true, true. Now let's see. Let's try another one. All right, so we got one. We have a question submitted by an undergrad chemistry and GPH student. How would you recommend that current students connect with alumni who are working in fields that they are interested in?

Meagan: That is a great question and I definitely think that's something that you should be doing if you're not already. Ways in which you can be connecting with alumni. One that I have to plug, I don't have to, but that I want to plug, is Violet Network, which is a resource that NYU has. And so alumni and fellow students are basically putting, they're like opting into this, it's like our own version of LinkedIn. And so they want to be mentors, they want to be reached out to, they want to connect with students. And so that is a great plug as well as utilizing LinkedIn, utilizing any activity event that you're able to make a connection with alumni in the fields that you're interested in. Basically find those people. Like there's ways to do it in LinkedIn where you go to the NYU page, you go to alumni, you filter out kind of what exactly you're looking for with the people that you're trying to connect with. And then see what jobs they have, see if that connects with your career goals. And then make, you know, make sure that you are sending a tailored and respectful and very intentional message to that alumni. Really showing why you wanna connect with them, what you're hoping to gain. Have that informational interview, our coffee chat, get to know them a little bit more, learn more about the industry. It's like the hidden weapon that no one thinks about sometimes, it's like connecting with alumni to do what you want to do that or doing what you want to be doing. And you're able to just get an insight into the industry, into the field that you're not gonna get in just like an interview or just by a Google search.

Gabby: True, true. No, I love that. And especially sometimes don't overthink it, right. You need to leverage, what your hobbies are, what your interests are, what is that class that you enjoyed in terms of hobbies, you know, reach out to alumni who were formerly part of your club on campus, right? Whether it's school based or all university clubs. I remember like really being into don't judge me, crocheting, right? Like I was a big crocheter and knitter in undergrad and so like I would reach out to alumni who were also part of that crocheting club and then it led to networking opportunities, right? You start talking about yarn and then you end up talking about an upcoming event, right? So definitely leverage your hobbies, leverage what you enjoy, you know, what you're good at. Especially like maybe you're in acting, you like playing sports or you're on a club sport, intramural sports, connect with people, right? Create like an alumni event with current students and go to a game, right? So definitely it doesn't always have to be career related at a start, but the conversations can lead to that, right? You gotta network with like what you love first because sometimes it could be become more natural and then definitely leverage your professors, right? You know, everyone keeps in touch with their professors. I have professors from undergrad and grad that I love and like go to for advice even to this day. So definitely like reach out to them and say, hey, this is the field of interest that I am, you know, currently looking forward to like learning more about or I'm trying to narrow down my interest. Do you have anybody you recommend I talk to, right? You'd be surprised, you know, professors get into this field because they truly value connecting with the students. They care, and so just ask worst case they're like, oh I don't know anybody, but let me find out. You know, like let me, maybe somebody else will know. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Meagan: You leverage your network, you know a lot of people. You have classmates, professors, friends, you know siblings, whoever the case may be. You can also utilize them to help you connect with other people in the industry, I a 100% agree. I think professors are very underutilized tools sometimes, but they have the best connections. They were once, you know, full-time industry professionals. So like leverage them. That is a great tip that I feel like a lot of times is not used. So that kind of leads into our next question, which is, so is cold emailing someone in leadership at a company worth doing? How if can a student stand out from the hundreds of applications that are being submitted online?

Gabby: Oh, this is a good question and I have like very competing feelings about this one. And it's honestly comes down to, I have heard from students that they've been successful with this approach, right? So instead of whether it's cold emailing or doing that more soft launch, you know, into people's DM's so to speak. It's more about like what you said earlier, being very strategic in your approach, being very intentional and being very clear. So I like to use the acronym like water, right? So when you're networking, you got a water, who are you? Right, W, who are you? Introduce yourself because these people don't know who you are, right? And then in terms of like ask questions, right? So like you have to ask open questions about them so that you can learn more about them and it should be aligned with ultimately your interests, right? So I like was very, you know, interested to see that like, you do this or you're working on this project or you come from this background. And I also too, like what is the common connection? Why did you reach out to this person beyond them just holding a certain position at an organization. In terms of the tea and water. Like, you know, try to keep it concise. These people get lots of emails, these people have, you know, very, you know, big scope of responsibilities and so you have to like make it a reason why they would reply, right? So keep it very concise. Keep it clear, every time say thank you, right? Like you need to show appreciation and gratitude that they, you know, are even considering the opportunity to talk to you. And then remember to keep in touch, right? So if this person does take the time out of their very busy day to connect with you, appreciate that and say thank you and sustain the connection, right? So when in doubt water.

Meagan: Okay. Yeah, no, I like that. I've never heard that before. That's actually really good. I am not opposed to the concept of someone cold emailing someone in leadership, but I think my question is like what is your intention behind doing that? Because you also don't wanna oversaturate yourself into an organization before you even gotten the foot in the door. So my thought is like maybe you, again people have success in it. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, but also thinking about why are you sending this email and maybe thinking maybe like, okay, I could also at the same vein reach out to someone lower, maybe someone who is an alumni or someone who is doing the exact role that I hope to be doing, have a more like casual informational session with them or a coffee chat to get to know them better. And then you could always form a connection that way. That's still leading you to that organization without necessarily going all the way to the top. And so sometimes I think it's like really making sure that you're not just emailing like the head of Google because they have a cool job and kind of what Gabby was saying, like making sure that the reason why you're reaching out is like genuine and authentic and kind of tailored and not just, I'm trying to get to the top so that they can let me in. Because a lot of times they're not the hiring manager. They don't have anything to do with the hiring process. And so like thinking through your decisions in why you're reaching out and that way you are still doing your part of like trying to set yourself apart in this process. I completely understand like wanting to do that. But also remember too, there are people who get jobs without necessarily like overly networking or like doing, they're just cold applying and they still get the job. I did that like to my current job, I did not reach out to a single soul and I cold applied and here I am. And so like just know, like it doesn't always sway the decision one way or the other. But I do also think networking is a huge positive thing that you can utilize in your job search process. So definitely reach out to people. I just think be a little specific and careful to not just reach out to every high leadership person, just to hypothetically stand out knowing that they are busy, their scope is large, they might not get back to you and it might be more attainable to reach out to someone who would actually be closer to your level who probably has the bandwidth to be able to respond and meet with you.

Gabby: It's that risk assessment, right? Like please do not outright ask them for a job. I mean I know students have said like, I wanna get to the point I'm direct. Okay, but you know, our recommendation is always be the strategic, you know, have an ask, build that connection, right? Because it can lead to very fruitful opportunities. Like I always share my personal anecdote of I met someone seven years ago, you know, when I first started at NYU and just maintain connections with them. You know, would just say like, oh, how's it going? You know, happy holidays. You know, hope all is well, we've run into them at certain company events 'cause they worked in a different department. And then when this opportunity at Wasserman got posted, they shared the link with me, right? And like they weren't even at Wasserman, they were like completely different department, but they saw the opportunity, they thought of me, they shared it with me and here I am, right? So sometimes it is playing the long game and it may not lead to like a direct result. But you never know what it could lead to, right? It's ultimately just like reaching out to people, making those connections and being authentic to yourself. Like I love that you said be genuine, but speak to your strengths, right? And so if you're someone where networking leads to anxiety or you know, it's not your thing, you know, definitely we're gonna plug coaching double time so stay with us. Like we can help share tips and strategies for that. But if you are a people person and like you thrive off of people's energy and like you're just not the person to like work on applications and like write that cover letter, then leverage that. You know, like maybe you're someone who's gonna be more active in the networking. So always speak to your strengths and if you're not sure what your strengths is, come to coaching and we can help you out.

Meagan: Exactly. We can figure that out with you.

Gabby: Ah, so this is submitted from an MPH, environmental public health science concentration. So what can I create beyond a resume and cover letter to show off my skills and accomplishments? Should I create a portfolio? Do I need a personal website? This is another common question I get. I would say one, it depends on your field and ultimately it depends on what the job description's asking for. So I'm a personal fan of don't volunteer information that's not asked of you . Like answer the questions asked, or you know, only give the information they want. So first like find out like do they need a resume? Most positions is like, that's a given. Sometimes cover letter's optional, right? So if it's optional though, and you still have the opportunity to provide a document then like provide it. Like that's another opportunity for you to like demonstrate your skills and demonstrate why you want this position. Why do you wanna do this work at this organization? So like why not, right? Like if you have another space to emphasize that, do it. In terms of a like personal website or portfolio. Like I know a lot of people like to ride the LinkedIn, you know, portfolio bandwagon. So definitely if that's your thing, do it. But I also know there's a big population of students that don't want social media, right? They're trying to take a break from social media. So if you are, you know, building your brand, building a website. If you feel like it's gonna be a value add, right? If you're someone who has a lot of projects, if you're someone who maybe has written a lot of papers and published or done a lot of presentations or you just have a lot of work that doesn't fit on a one pager and you're proud of it, then why not, right? But assess your bandwidth, right? Do you have the bandwidth, do you have the skillset? Do you have the time to learn the skillset, right? To build it. There's a lot of resources at NYU especially with like, you know, shout out to the production lab who does a lot of things and eLab. And I know Wasserman in the Creative Careers hub does a lot of events to support students who wanna build their brand and build their portfolio. But it ultimately is like, is it needed and do you wanna do it, right/ Because that is a big lift, right? But if you're someone who is in those fields where like you see a lot of people have it, you're talking and networking with people and they recommend it, then definitely start now while you're in school, right? So it's less pressure than doing it after graduation where the timeline can feel a little sped up.

Meagan: Yeah, I agree, I also think remembering too, depending on the bandwidth of the organizations that you're applying to, there's no a 100% guarantee that even if you have a personal website or you create a portfolio and it's on your resume that a recruiter or a hiring manager is going to look at it. And so to Gabby's point, think about your bandwidth, kind of going back to the risk assessment you know. Like for me, I wanna make sure that all that you are trying to show and highlight is definitely on your resume. And again, if you have the option on the cover letter, because if that is all that they see, that needs to be guaranteed present and on the forefront to these recruiters, to these hiring managers. But after that, if let's say they have the time or that they have, you know, maybe more interest in your application and they wanna see more of your work, then sure they might take that extra time to go seek that information out and they can find that absolutely. But I would not overly stress that you need to have it to be the thing that sets you apart where I think it's more about the materials that are a 100% required of you making sure that that stands out. Because that's at the end of the day going to be the thing that matters when you are applying to jobs.

Gabby: I tell my students, your resume needs to speak about you when you're not in the room. So if we're going through your resume and I'm like, all right, like do you have experience with this? And you're like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, okay, where on your resume does it say that? Oh here, I was like, but that's not what you said. Right? Like that's not how you articulated it. Oh but that's what I meant. Your resume can't be open to interpretation, right?. If you know you have that skill, if you know you made that accomplishment and it's exactly what that employer is looking for, then say that, right? Like and the beauty of the resume is that you're the director of your first impression. You can edit it . You know, a lot of times students are like, oh no, I'm stuck with this. No, you can edit it. That's the beauty of it. And why we say tailor to the opportunity, it's not because we want you to write a whole bunch of different resumes. But if you have varied interests and you are interested in different types of positions, it's a reason why they're different, right? So you have to have different resumes, right? You gotta tailor it to the opportunity. So I love that.

Meagan: And taking a quote from one of our coworkers, she always makes a comment of, “you have to spoon feed the employer”. So if they ask for X, you need to make sure that on your resume is X. So like thinking through it like that as like where is it and how can this speak to me again, like Gabby was saying, when I'm not in the room. So I a 100% agree, that's beautiful.

Gabby: Golden golden.

Meagan: The next question that we have is, from a master's in epidemiology student and they wanna, you know, know more about how to start an informational interview and like how to build their network.

Gabby: Ooh, I think I'm gonna tackle the building part first. I like to start with who I know, right? So especially if this is your first time networking and you haven't networked yet, who do you have in your, like if you wanna call it your inner circle, your board of trustees, who do you already go to for advice? Whether it's personal, academic, or professional. Because they can also be the same people you go to advice to start to figure out your career goals. So for example, I go to my mom like you know, like I go to my mom if I have a question, I'm like, hey mama, I'm like considering this. Like what do you think? Right? Or if you have very close friends, you have your colleagues, you have your classmates, right? The people who are in your program right now, guess what? They're gonna graduate and be in the same field as you working positions alongside you in organizations that you also may be interested in. They're your network. You're considering them as your peer network now, but they're gonna be your colleagues and your professional network in a few years. So definitely leverage them, right? Get to know your classmates outside of the classroom. We said it before, but your professors, right? So leverage your professors. It takes a professor, well not all professors, but it takes a professor on average three times to remember your name, right? So go to office hours, right? It doesn't always have to be, oh I have a question on the assignment or I have a question on this upcoming final. No, just go and be like, hey professor, hey Dr. X, you know, I really enjoyed what you brought up in class, you know, or it was very insightful that reading you shared. And then it could slowly lead to, hey, I'm looking to conduct some informational interviews. Who do you recommend I reach out to? Right and sometimes you don't have to overthink it. So I like to start with who I know.

Meagan: Yeah, no I agree. Like when I think about networking. Like I first immediately go to my brother. I have an older brother and he knows everyone under the sun. I make the joke that like he could be stranded in a deserted island and he would know someone who knows someone and he'd be back on a private jet the next day. So for me, I'm like okay, this is what I want. This is like the things I'm interested in. I've looked at your network on LinkedIn and these are the four people that I want you to connect me with. And so like you leverage that like you know people who know people and like take advantage of that. 'Cause I think the idea sometimes of cold like messaging people obviously like the NYU community is amazing. And so like our alumni genuinely want to connect with you know, current students. And so like don't be afraid to reach out to them. But sometimes it is easier and feels a little safer reaching out to the people that we know or the someone that we know is friend, et cetera. So I definitely a 100% agree with like kind of sometimes starting like inner circle can feel less daunting in the grand scheme of building the network. And then continue those relationships, you know, be respectful, make sure that you are like trying to build a meaningful connection with these people. 'Cause that is a really great way to start building your network one way or another. And like Gabby said, like congratulating them on a promotion or you know, Merry Christmas or whatever the case may be. Kind of staying connected in little bits. It doesn't have to be, we need to meet six times a year and we need to have these very formal conversations and I need you to become my best friend. That could genuinely happen. If it does, I love that. If it does work, I love that for you. But if it doesn't, just think about it in a way of like, we all have these like pseudo friends on the internet, we like their posts, we do whatever, you can do that. That's a way to stay connected. Your name is still showing up on their phone, but you're not like having to have these very formal meetings x amount of times a year. And so I think just keeping that in mind when thinking about how to build the network and then how to start an informational interview. So let's say you've reached out to someone, you know, you've asked them, hey, do you have time on your calendar in the next month? Would love to meet with you for coffee. They say yes, when you get there, say hi, say how are you doing? You know, kind of sometimes don't over complicate it, but then thinking about, one, doing a little research beforehand on that person. Make sure that you know what they do. Maybe look into, you know, what did they study in undergrad or grad school? What was their research papers on, anything like that. Coming in with questions about the place that they work or what would you like to know from them? I think it can just be as simple as you wanna make sure that you're coming in to seek some form of guidance from them. And they are just going to be happy to share. People like to talk about themselves. It's just psychology. I was a psych undergrad.

Gabby: That's very true.

Meagan: I'm like I know, people like to talk about themselves. So like just being very intentional coming in with a set of questions but let the conversation flow. Don't feel like it has to be like an interrogation. It can be a conversation. Pitch yourself, explain what you are interested in, what your hobbies are, connect with them. You're not gonna connect with every person that you have an informational interview with. I need that to be known. And that's also, okay. Get your answers, learn what you would like to know and like move on. So just know, like it could go either way, but no matter what, do some research beforehand on the individuals that you're meeting with. Come in with questions, learn more about them, their story, their organization, what they do, what you would hypothetically be doing. And like that's kind of how I would go into navigating an informational interview.

Gabby: True, the only change that I would make is that sometimes, and this is probably 'cause I had to do a lot of informational interviews in grad, and it was like in the peak of COVID, So I also learned the importance of leveraging, you know, Zoom, right? Like leveraging virtual formats. And I know sometimes you may think, oh no, I need to connect with this person in a coffee chat. I need to meet with them in person. Leverage that first meeting, you know, potentially to be virtual. It gives people a lot more flexibility, especially for smaller coffee chats of like 15 to 20 minutes. Someone's probably more likely to say yes if it's 20 minutes on Zoom than they are like 15 to 20 minutes in person when you have to account for things like travel commute, potential childcare that they need to take in or things like that. And also like it helps in terms of safety . You know, in terms of safety, you don't know this person, right? You know their LinkedIn, you know their position but you don't know this person. And also like to make sure that they do have like a story that is gonna be helpful to you, right? Like maybe this person is gonna be very helpful for one thing but maybe they don't have a shared identity or lived experience. You know, in terms of you like I'm especially like when I consider like international students, if you reach out to somebody in a Europe but then they're a domestic you know, candidate and didn't go through the visa sponsorship process, then they may not be able to address those questions that are very, you know, important to you at this point in time in your job search. So it's also helpful to make sure that you're connecting with people with shared identities or shared lived experiences so that you can get to the root of the real answers you want the questions to. Or the real questions you want the answers to, whichever way it works. And like Meagan said, don't overthink it, be genuine and be authentic and ask them about them. 'Cause people do really like to talk about themselves.

Meagan: Yes, literally, so next question we got is, how does one answer the interview question of what's your expected salary?

Gabby: Ooh, salary negotiation. So one thing I do wanna make clear, is that at least in the US salary negotiation is expected and definitely we don't wanna just straight up ask somebody ever how much they make. It may vary like on the receiving end generation to generation. I do know that there more younger generations that are more comfortable sharing with salary. Like it's, you know, trending on some TV shows, you know, where people share salary reports and things like that. But to ensure that there's no awkwardness or uncomfortable conversations, we recommend that there's different ways you can approach asking that question. And keeping note that there are some countries and some cultures where like that isn't as acceptable, right? So just always do your research, right? You wanna do your research not only on salary ranges within your industry, but salary expectations and salary negotiations expectations within a certain company and field. So when it comes to just asking, you know, you're gonna do your research, you're gonna get your industry range, you know, check Payscale, check Glassdoor to figure out what the particular range is for that position and consider geographical location, right? A certain position, what you pay in New York and San Francisco may be very different from Kansas. Sorry, I always pick on Kansas.

Meagan: I pick Oklahoma for whatever reason every time .

Gabby: I'm sure Kansas is great, I love Kansas, "Wizard of Oz." So definitely you wanna do your research, right? You wanna make sure, okay, what the range of numbers I'm dealing with? But then you also want to leverage informational interviewing, right? So the same way that you're connecting with people to figure out more about certain fields of interest or certain career paths. That's one of the questions you can ask, right? You can say like, hi, like upon my research, the industry standard for this position is from A to B. Like do you feel like that is in alignment with what you're seeing, right? It's a way to not exactly ask or directly ask and you're just like, hey, like you're asking someone you already know or someone that you're currently connecting with. If it's alignment, right? And I feel like that's a very professional way to ask somebody without making it direct to them and making it potentially uncomfortable.

Meagan: Yeah, and if that gets asked you in an interview, this is where before going into the interview, you wanna make sure that you've done your research on again what is that pay range in the industry for that role potentially for that company. You know, the all of that information or something very similar will be around on Google. So like taking that into account and then when you answer it, we always recommend giving a range, trying not to like siloed yourself into one exact number. Just because you want to hypothetically have the option to negotiate later after you have an offer and be like, hi, I'm great, these are the reasons why I deserve X amount. Can we try to make that salary closer to that number? So don't put yourself in a box by just answering with a number, but do your research say, based on my research in for this role, you know, in this industry I'm seeing it between A and B like Gabby said. And like, so I expect a salary within that range and then just like leave it there. So that way and if they try to push, like a lot of the times for me I'm like, you can just keep reiterating that point. That's not necessarily an interview question to me that you have to answer in the sense of they don't need you to.

Gabby: But they have, I gotta say, it happened to me, I wanna say twice in my, this was more after undergrad it had happened and I wasn't expecting that. Especially because after you know, undergrad I was like, oh you know, I'm just happy to get paid. I remember my first offer was like $25,000 a year and I was just ecstatic

Meagan: Sign me up.

Gabby: I was like, yes. I was like, I'm a working woman, I was so happy. But I remember being asked, what's your expected salary in like applications. Like when you have to put in the field. And that's a question I get a lot with students. It's like what number do I put? So like Meagan said, like when you do your research you wanna like find a number that is practical but also something you can live with. Gabby of 25K would not be able to survive in New York City today. But once you have that number and definitely that's something we can help you get to in coaching. That's a number that you would put in the application. But you have to be practical, right? 'Cause there are some organizations in their screening process that may screen you out if like you ask for like $2 million, right? In your salary range. So you wanna make sure it's practical and in alignment with the salary range. They may also provide, depending on the state that the position's in, there's some states that have like the pay transparency laws. And then in the interview process, if you're asked it because like I have experienced being asked this, way back years ago. You can just say, oh, like it's negotiable. Yeah, like hey look, the salary's negotiable. Or, oh like I expect to be compensated competitive salary in alignment with my educational attainment, my relevant skills and you know, my x years of experience. Or whatever you value add basically. I like the phrase like your unique value add. You'll hear that a lot if you're like looking at our materials. So definitely you wanna like have those phrases in mind and whether you're writing it down on a post-it or you practice it in the mirror, should you be asked it, right? Like I think the good part about interview prep is that you wanna be prepped for those awkward conversations. 'Cause the worst thing is when you're asked it and then you're deer in headlights, right? And if that happens, take a moment. Like I always use the like drink your glass of water. You know? And like you're like, oh that's a great question. Think, think, think. Right? And then that way you can compose yourself and say, oh you know what I would like more time to reflect or I'd be more better able to answer that question once I had a look at the overall compensation package, right? Like those are some phrases that you can turn to should somebody press you. But that's also a red flag in the interview process, at least if an inclusive employer is one of your factors in your search.

Meagan: Yeah, a little deflect. We're not, you know, not answering the question but maybe we're answering it a little ambiguously just so that again you have the option to negotiate to be compensated in a way that makes sense to you. But definitely keeping all that in mind with the question of what's your expected salary. It can be really scary but like take that breath, you got this and practice does make perfect. And always try to go into interviews prepared. I think that that's something that took me a really long time to figure out. It is okay to practice beforehand and half the time you practice for questions that don't come up. But if they had, I would've been prepared.

Gabby: Yeah a great resource that we have is Big Interview.

Meagan: Yeah.

Gabby: I love Big Interview. Like I just like to prep the career development nerd in me. I'm like, oh let me throw some questions. What are those questions I can add to my repertoire when I'm doing mock interviews with students? That's me, that's who I am. But I love Big Interview. It's so cool 'cause you, you're able to, you know, go through the mock interview process by industry, by competency area. They have different levels, whether it's an internship or like middle manager, senior manager, director. It's like such a robust, underutilized resource. 'Cause I feel like students, by the time they realize it's like the day before the interview, right? Or they're looking at our interview guide but then it's a small line of their practice. And so I tell my students, hey when you need a career coach, but it's Saturday, two o'clock in the morning and you know, Gabby and Meagan are not available. Leverage Big Interview, I swear by it.

Meagan: Yeah, it's a platform essentially where you get to record your self answering a question and it basically is a mock interview with like a computer and it will analyze like your answer and like how to best give you tips and tricks on navigating if you have enough eye contact. If you say too many times it is a great tool. I definitely agree, but I always give the caveat to my students of like take it with a little bit of grain of salt. It is a computer analyzing you. Real interactions either virtually or in person. No one's picking up on the ums, the likes, the like the eye contact. Unless it's all aggressive. So just know, like I've probably said um at least once in this, I literally as I said it, in this podcast. But just know like half the time people don't notice. So like keep that in mind. However, it is a fantastic tool and I agree it's underutilized and it is actually really fun to just record yourself and be like, Ooh, I did not answer that well, let me take that one back. 'Cause you get to rerecord yourself as many times as you want, just so you know.

Gabby: Yeah. It's also cool, especially if you're in fields. Like I know there's a lot of positions within public health that sometimes do screenings in advance. Like you have to like record yourself like.

Meagan: Yes, I've done that before.

Gabby: Hire review or something like that. So students have asked me like, how do I prep for this? I'm like Big Interview, right? Because it gives you at least the sense, right? The sensation of just talking to a camera when you may be more used to thriving off of people's reaction whether virtual or in person. So definitely plug in Big Interview it's a great resource.

Meagan: Yes, which literally leads us into the next question which is, oh how can I prepare? Sorry we had too much enjoyment of that. But the next question is, how can I prepare for an upcoming interview and do you have any tips and advice? So we just spent a decent amount of time talking about Big Interview, so definitely utilize that. You can always, like we've been saying, come in for a coaching session, do a mock interview. My big tip and trick when I do like interviewing different presentations with students is, I know it sounds silly, but write out responses and then say them out loud. Like, I used to be so terrified of tell me about yourself. And I would just kind of like paralyze and like sit there and be like stunned as if like, I apparently have never met myself in my life. And so then right before, after grad school when I was applying to different jobs, I was on the phone with a mentor who is also like my biggest hype woman. And I would practice through the different answers and every time she would be like, why did you say it like that? Or like, she would be like, you are so much better than what you just described yourself as. And so like talk it through out loud either in a mirror, in Big Interview with someone that you value who is not like by no means she was not shutting me down, she was telling me I wasn't giving myself even a third of the credit that I deserved. So like have that conversation with someone who like is gonna hype you up, make you feel good. Because the more you practice talking about yourself, your different experiences, you will naturally start, one, believing it, but two, like saying it with such a confidence that that is what people want to see in an interview is like confidence. You cannot fake confidence. That's not fully true. You can fake it till you make it. But I'm saying you can't, like once someone is exuding confidence, it is a very attractive thing.

Gabby: No, you can feel it.

Meagan: You can feel it. It's a vibe. So like keeping that in mind, like definitely talk with people, practice, you know, walk through, do some research on, you know, general questions in the industry. Whether that is on Big Interview or on just like Google searches. Because most times an organization's actual interview questions or not going to be out in the public, sometimes they get leaked. But besides that general questions based on the industry, you can also learn that through those informational interviews we've been talking about. But just like finding questions that you think relate to the position that you are applying to. And then practice how you plan on responding. And then very lastly, when it comes to behavioral questions, the star method was my saving grace. The day I figured out what the star method was. My chatty self has never had a better interview in her life because I cannot sometimes get to a point to save my life. And so the star method is essentially you describe the situation based on the question that was asked. You then explain the task that you were given based on the situation, then the action steps that you took, and then you end it with the result of what happened based on what the situation is. And so for me, whenever I'm like, ooh, I'm either given too much info, whatever, I'm thinking to myself, okay, I said the situation, I said the task, I need to move on. What's the action? Okay great. What was the result? And so it allows you to move quickly but effectively through a situation to a stranger who has no idea of your background, but giving them the information that they need to like be answering the question that they asked effectively.

Gabby: True, and yes and to everything you just said. And I love that you approached like approaching during the interview process, but one thing you gotta remember, you got the interview, They already kind of want you, right? Like they've already looked at your resume, they've looked at your cover letter. And they have said, we would like to learn more about you. That's how you gotta walk into the interview, right? You gotta walk in with that confidence. And all they wanna do is just make sure that you match the person on the piece of paper. And see how you would navigate a few of these behavioral questions, right? So if you approach the interview process with that energy, already done. Now in terms of like figuring out the questions, like that's the question I get all the time in coaching. One tip that I swear by is copy the job description into a separate document. Whether you're putting it into a Google doc, Microsoft, or write it out on a post-it.

Meagan: Or download it as a PDF.

Gabby: Oh yes. Or like go to fake print it and then you can save as a PDF. That's my tip.

Meagan: The reason why is because when they start the interview process, they're pulling that posting down. At least if they're, you know, an effective organization. So you're not gonna have access to that anymore, right? And that job description is literally your answer key. Like, students who have seen me in coaching, you're gonna hear this and they can repeat this verbatim, but I always say when there's a job posting, the employer is saying, we have a problem. We don't have someone to do this work. Your resume is the answer to that problem. So if you got called for an interview, they're already considering you the potential solution to all of their problems. So you just have to like, and in the interview show them you are gonna be a value add to their team. Right, so you just wow them with your answers. You have to brag about yourself. So if you are someone who is usually the humble one, you know, usually we're like, no, no, we did it with a team. No, you gotta come in and say yeah, I was a part of that. I collaborated, the I statements go hard. And then my last tip is just always, well two last tips, you gotta send that thank you email. You gotta send that thank you email. And I would say if you have a bunch of interviews queued up, you know, for a couple weeks, put reminders on your calendar or however you stay organized to say you're gonna send that thank you email. And then include a unique, like a unique connection you made in that interview. Right, like, hey Meagan, you know, it was great like connecting with you in that interview. I really appreciate you sharing your love of baseball. Like, you know, like I really connected with that and I feel like I could definitely like to understand the culture at your team Better, right? Something like that. In addition to the standard template that we have templates on Handshake that you can definitely build upon from. And last final tip, grandmother swears by it, she tells me to eat a banana before every interview. So unless you have any, you know, potassium limitations, or you're allergic, eat a banana, definitely works for me every time.

Gabby: Actually to that. This is my last comment on it because that sparked it for me. I always tell students, prepare leading up to the interview, but the day of the interview, stop your preparation. You've done everything that you can up until that point. Like Gabby said, they already like you, you would not have been offered an interview if they didn't think you were a great fit. So I agree, go in with that confidence. But I always say, listen to good music, that sounds so silly, but like put yourself in a good mood. Do the things that make you happy. Before any big interview, I'm listening to hype music, I am drinking a coffee because I'm obsessed with coffee. And honestly right before my interview with Wasserman, I did like 15 jumping jacks because the adrenaline goes hard and endorphins. But very lastly, the same part of your brain that is excitement is also nerve. So if you are feeling nervous, just tell yourself that you are excited and ho like really hone into the excitement because that is shown on camera or in person. You can hear someone smiling. It is like a very genuine fact. And so like just know if you are nervous, turn that into excitement, hype yourself up. You are your personal hype person. So do that right before you got this. And like just go in with such good energy and like that is genuinely all you can do.

Meagan: I love that. I love that. I'm sorry. Like I love this girl man. She's the best person to work with. Alright, so we have our next question submitted by anonymous. I am not getting any interviews even though I applied for many jobs and internships. What am I doing wrong?

Gabby: Great question, I don't necessarily, I personally don't like to ever go with the perception of like, what am I doing wrong? But like, how can we elevate, how can we like change the outcome? For me, if you're not getting any interviews, I would say let's look at your materials, let's look at your resume and your cover letter and let's look at the jobs that you are applying to. Do they make sense? I think sometimes we all naturally want to apply to everything hoping that something will stick. But kind of to our earlier sentiment that me and Gabby both went into, you wanna be intentional with where you're applying and you wanna make sure that the employer can see your value add and how you would fit. Whether you have direct experience with that or whether your experience might be transferable. But I think making sure that you are applying to places that match your experience, your skillset, and therefore you are a given, you know, solution to their problem. And sometimes I think we just naturally apply to things that are very broad or we apply to things that we are under qualified or overqualified for. And so just kind of keeping all of that into account and chatting with a career coach on like, okay what is happening? Like where am I applying? This is what I want, what is that on my resume? Is there a way that you can supplement maybe what's missing on it? That way we can increase your odds to get an interview.

Meagan: No, and I love that and I like the way that you said like, how do I know if I'm qualified? How am I good enough? Like what I tell my students sometimes if you are having those same thoughts and you are a visual learner, or you could probably adapt it, come to coaching and I'll adapt it for you if you're not a visual learner, but if you go through a job description and for every single line in the job description, ask yourself, can I do this work? Yes or no? If it's no move on to the next one. You only need to be 60% qualified for the role. I repeat 60% qualified for the role to apply. So if it's a no, like I would, if you really truly cannot do something, highlight it red. Now if it's something you're like, oh yeah, I could do it, highlight it green and then what in your past makes you think you could do that experience. Right, because then that's what goes on your one pager, right? Like it's not the full job, but it's like that unique opportunity, that unique bullet point, that unique project accomplishment goes on that one pager. And then if there's anything on that job description that you're like, oh, I could kind of do it, that's like me in Excel back in the day, now I use it all the time, but you're like, oh, I'm not a 100% confident in it. Highlight it yellow. Everything red and yellow is now your skill gaps. That you need to address. And you have like all this time at NYU to address them, right? Or like you can put a known timeline on yourself. And seek out LinkedIn learning courses, which is free for NYU students. So definitely, you know, leverage that, you know, see what courses you may wanna add to your academic path, you know, while you're here at NYU or leverage them out of the classroom experiences, right? Like are these, the internships you're gonna start narrowing down. Are these the volunteer activities you wanna like seek out? Right, you could start developing a target approach if that is the goal, right? Now, if you got a lot of green on there, that's the overqualified, right? Like let's start challenging yourself. What is the position that that row reports to? Right? Like who's their boss, right? And start applying to those positions. Now if you see a lot of yellow and reds, okay, come to coaching, we gotta strategize. We might need a little reality check here, but that could still be the goal. We just may not need to see who reports into that role. Right, is there another role? I don't like the term lesser qualified, but maybe like something else that you can revisit right now until you get more resume builders. To then get you to that position. A stepping stone. Exactly. So if you find yourself in that situation where you're not getting interviews, the best part, like even when we were talking about before, you're the director of your first impression. You can pivot, you can change, right? It's just you are the one that has to ultimately decide at what point are you going to. And then just know that you have people here at Wasserman who are literally here to help. That is our job to make sure that you are set up for success so that you can start getting the interviews.

Gabby: I agree 100%. So our next question is, what are some typically common standards for international students regarding career etiquette in the US? Such as crafting a professional thank you email after an interview?

Meagan:Ooh, this is a great question. I feel like when it comes to international students, one thing I just wanna make sure I make very well known. Ask all the obvious questions. Never assume that a question is unique to international students, one. yes you have your unique experience, but I promise you, you have the same question that even the US citizen student does. So definitely, definitely ask all the obvious questions and if you even have that confidence to ask it, whether in the workshop, whether in that networking event, whether in the career fair, you're probably gonna help out a lot of students, right? So one, you know, leverage that and step into that and ask the obvious questions. In terms of career etiquette with the thank you email, we have the templates. Right, so the templates, I use them myself even when I'm saying thank you to panelists that come to events. So definitely like leverage our thank you emails, leverage our follow up emails. I know I have some students that are always very concerned with, you know, the proper grammar or the proper like phrases that they may be using. So use our templates but also like I use spell check all the time. Like I am a bilingual trying to be trilingual right now with Duolingo and I swear by spell check. I downloaded Grammarly you know, to my email. So definitely like I want you to lean into that and just more say, okay, I'm acknowledging that this may not be my strong suit and leverage the resources at your disposal. And also like have people look over emails. Like Meagan knows, I'll be like, hey, I drafted this email, I wanna make sure this makes sense. I wanna make sure this is professional English or I wanna make sure it's like concise, right? And so we forward emails back and forth. So it's also important to like create your job search support group. Right, like find your people, you know, whether they're international students or not, right? And just find your people and have like a peer-to-peer support group because y'all are all going through the same thing, so why not help each other?

Gabby: Right, no I agree. In grad school, one of my best friends and coworkers was an international student from Mexico and she grew up in the US she just wasn't born in the US and so she is trilingual, she will fight on that but she's trilingual. And so half the time I'm like, girl you've got so many different languages going on in your head. A 100%, so like she'll like even call me mid work day now and she'll be like okay, I need you to tell me does this actually sound right. Because she's like, in my mind it does but then it also sounds right in Spanish but then it also sounds right in French. And I'm like, okay, too many languages. Okay, yeah I wouldn't say this. I would change that. Like and so just know there are people in your corner. Leverage them. Utilize it. I am the first to say I only speak English. And English is a hard language so just know a lot of the grammar does not make any sense. So it is not you. And so leverage the fact that there are people who will like easily help you out and be like, yeah, I wouldn't say two I would say like four or whatever, just as a weird example. And so just know like little changes and nuances are normal. Utilize different resources. I think the one thing I wanna think about when it comes to like not just professional like thank you emails, but something like general etiquette for reaching out to employers or recruiters is not wanting to like overload them with communication. So I think something that I've seen in a lot of international students will come to me about is about how often they should reach out to employers. So typically like let's say we're gonna use the concept that you have had an interview and you are sending that thank you email. Awesome, we're gonna do that with like within a day of the interview. And then you don't hear anything back about the next steps. I would say wait about a week or two then follow up. Same thing after that. Kind of like giving some gaps in between, just because you never know what's going on at the organization. Things could come up, maybe that search is on pause for a second and they're not always, that employer might not have the bandwidth to communicate effectively, half the time that is the case, which is obviously sad. I want updates hourly if possible. But unfortunately like that's outside of their control. So just remembering too, like if you're ever worried about what is proper etiquette or like how often you should be communicating, meet with a coach, we can chat you through it. And also, we can like learn more about the situation because sometimes there's different like things that could come up that could change that advice. But general rule of thumb tried to like, you know, give some time in between responses. Don't try to overload communication 'cause it typically doesn't overly help in any favor.

Meagan: True, and I also love one of the offerings we have at Wasserman, the International Student Career series. Because many of my colleagues, what they've done is that, you know, based on feedback from students saying like, hey these are some like of the gaps like we find ourselves encountering when it comes to career development. So they have a combination of events every semester. Accompanied by professional conversation hours. So like you learn the thing and then you get to practice the thing. And so whether it's you know about the job search or about talking about your, you know, like utilizing your OPT or CPT or if it's talking about H1B sponsorship with an employer, like those real conversations that international students have to have in their job search. Then they have the professional conversation hours where they get to like practice having some of those conversations amongst peers before they have to have the real conversation with the employer. So I love that offering. And so if you have not leveraged that yet, definitely recommend it and you can check out our Handshake events page for when the next event is.

Gabby: Yeah, no, absolutely. Then we have a submitted question from an undergrad they wanna go into a PhD in counseling psychology at NYU and they wanna know what should they be doing while they're getting their master's in bioethics at NYU I'm assuming to strengthen their application.

Meagan: Oh, this is a great question. So I can't speak to the specifics about bioethics and counseling because I know my limits. I am not an expert in those fields. But what I can tell you is like more generally what you wanna do when you're considering a doctoral program and applying to a doctoral program. So especially like while you're at NYU, I would leverage the faculty at NYU, especially if you're considering doing your PhD at NYU. 'Cause you guess what? You got that purple card, you got the purple ID card, right? You know, and go into all the buildings. So do your research, right? Who are the faculty and the counseling psychology program that align with your research interests, right? One, you know, talk to their admissions office, right? And see like, okay, what are the deadlines, what do I need to do? But also like if there's a particular faculty that's aligned with your research interests. You one, wanna make sure have they done recent research with what you're interested in? Because maybe you read a paper back in undergrad or in high school from like 1993, does not mean that's what they're focusing on now, right? So you wanna make sure one, are they doing that same research currently? And then talk with them, right? See if they're willing to read some of your research, see if they're willing to have the coffee chat with you, you know, that informational interview. And then talk with current students, talk with them about like their experiences, what they recommend, students leverage while in their time here. And also like any tips they have for the application process. And then while you do that, I would also start putting together some of those documents. At Wasserman, you could definitely like bring your personal statement. We could take a look at it and make sure that you're answering the question. And you could definitely leverage, I'll plug the GSAS writing center, because they have writers on staff that are a combination of graduate and doctoral students that can take a look at your writing and like deep the grammar, you know, are you answering the question and give that feedback. And their turnaround time is like crazy fast. So gsas.writing@nyu.edu, just big shout out to them. 'Case y'all do amazing work. I always refer students there. You do not need to just be GSAS student to utilize their resource. Anybody can go see them. And yeah, the big thing with doctoral applications is that you wanna stay organized. You wanna, you know, make sure you connect with the professors who will ultimately, you know, accept you into the program because they're the ones that are gonna be reviewing your application and then understand that you may not get in right at the first time because maybe there's no bandwidth for that particular faculty member to like advise you, you know, in that time. Like it's all about timing, you know, and about like the match. So especially if you're a current student now, like make those connections now so that way you are set up for success. I feel like that's a phrase I always use, but we wanna make sure you're set up for success to ultimately pursue your goals. But that was a long-winded way to say what you should be doing is just get your things in order, you know, get your things in order, talk to all the right people that I've just stated and then definitely like ask questions. So like the best connection would be the admissions office as well.

Gabby: I agree, and the only thing I would add is just like, keep in mind that all of your degrees up until this point, there's something that you are currently doing that is going to be transferrable to that PhD program. So like leveraging that in bioethics, maybe it's like the research, maybe in the undergrad degrees, it's the anthropology piece and like connecting with groups of people based on whatever. So remembering that there's things in your degrees that you're currently getting, that you can leverage when you're thinking about and showing the unique perspective that you will be bringing into this PhD program and like taking advantage of that. And like Gabby was saying, any other resources around campus, like you're already a current student. Like take advantage of the fact that you're already here and you have the accessibility to so many great individuals to kind of answer your questions.

Meagan: True. But great questions. We see it all the time. We have double violets is what we like to call when students go from like multiple degrees.

Gabby: How's that triple violet.

Meagan: Oh yeah, triple violet. So definitely, definitely keep us posted, keep us posted how it goes, we always love to hear success stories. All right. So we got, are we at almost our final question?

Gabby: I think we are on our final question.

Meagan: Time flies when you're having fun. All right, so if you could give yourself one piece of advice when you were a student, what would it be?

Gabby: I was thinking about this before this started. Just because this is a fantastic question. We kind of talked about it a little bit, but I genuinely wish much earlier in my life slash in my like academic slash professional career that I figured out the value add that I bring to any form of situation and like just coming into interviews or different opportunities with confidence. It took me so long to realize that like I needed to be really leveraging my strengths and as my big thing advice is like figure out what your strengths are while you are a student. Meet with people who will help lift you up, provide you with the guidance to get you to a place of confidence. That's like the big thing that led me into my current career and then specifically into this job is I want students to not have the experience that I had where I was lost and confused and not confident in what I brought to a table. And I don't ever want any of my students to leave one meeting with me feeling that way. I want them to always feel like they are fantastic, they are unique. They bring a unique set of skill sets that no one else can bring. And that's what you are leveraging when you are trying to get a job, when you're applying to a PhD program. When you're just living your day-to-day life. Like there's only one you, and I think, I wish I had figured that out so long ago, but, and also just taking advantage of resources and people that genuinely care. I think when I was an undergrad, I was so scared of like putting myself out there and like potentially being rejected or not really knowing what I was doing. So therefore how could I have someone help me if I didn't know? But there are people out there who genuinely want to help you figure out that path. And I think once I figured that out, like everything changed and like, I would not have been here if this wasn't the case, but that's my like biggest piece of advice and goal for every single student is like, I want you to figure out how to be confident, way before I did because let me be the mistake. Let me have figured that out the hard way so that you can come in and just like hit the ground running like so that you can pursue your goals. And like, that's my biggest piece of advice and takeaway.

Meagan: I love that you gave me goosebumps. I dunno, when I was thinking about this question, like I kind of was leaning on like two, which kind of wraps up into one. But the first thing that came to mind was like, don't bet against yourself. Like I used to bet against myself all the times. Like the amount of times I would look at jobs or even opportunities in undergrad and grad and I would say, oh, I'm not good enough. Or no, I don't have that, I'm not qualified, I'm not this, I'm not that.

Gabby: Don't tell yourself no, let them tell you no is my.

Meagan: Exactly. That's why it's wild that now I'm a career coach uplifting people because I think it's like, what they always say like, your strength is what, you know, what was your weakness or something like that. So I just always want to make sure like students don't bet against yourself, right? Like, let them tell you no, don't like, just go. Worst case they say no and you're in the same position you're in now, right? Like go for it. 'cause you'd be surprised. Like other people may see strengths where you don't see them, right? And then when you were talking, what came up for me was like truly just understanding and letting students know it is okay to not have it all figured out. And it's okay to change your mind. So speaking as a career changer, you know, multiple times, it's okay. Like no one expects you to have it all figured out at 18. No one expects you to have it all figured out at 21. No one expects you to have it off you die 30. Right? Like, and then keep going. Like, it doesn't matter. Like if you are, like for example, like my own dad is like 50 years old and has changed his career and now he's a flight attendant, right? Like, so it is okay to change careers and that's the beauty of this life is that you get to do what you love as soon as you figure out what you love, right? So as long as you have or start getting a firm understanding of like what is your interest, what's your values and what you're good at. And understand that Wasserman is here to connect you to the right people, the right resources at the right time. Then you're golden. You know, you are golden. And you know, like last time for the good of the order, we just wanna set you up for success. So you know, whether it's, you know, checking out our events, you know, or coming to a coaching appointment or going to that networking opportunity, right? Just know that we are here for you and we're here to help. So that brings us to the end of our podcast. Thank you once again for joining us for the I AM GPH podcast. I know we shared a lot today, but you know, definitely check out our events on Handshake. You can schedule a coaching appointment, one-on-one with a career coach via the career center on Handshake. And if you have any questions at all, do not hesitate to reach out to our team at career.development@nyu.edu. Have a great day everyone.

Gabby: Thank you.