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EP144 The Future of Smart Farming with Gilwoo Lee
Aman Chopra: Folks, welcome back to another episode of the I AM GPH podcast. And today, we're taking you to the world of computer science startups and obviously, public health. Our guest today has earned a Bachelor's of Science in Math and Computer Science, a master's in Computer Science and Engineering from MIT, but that's not all. This person has also achieved an MS in Robotics from Carnegie Mellon University and a PhD in Artificial Intelligence from the School of Computer Science and Engineering at the University of Washington. Now, you might be thinking I'm talking to a computer, but no, before all these degrees come into play, this person is actually deep in the world of public health, and our guest is not only a Startup Founder and CEO at Zordi, which is building autonomous greenhouses with robots to deliver high quality local producer the world. This guest advises multiple students as well at NYU through the entrepreneurial lab and the business school. You're probably thinking I can't wait to hear all about this. Gilwoo Lee, welcome to the I AM GPH podcast. We glad to have you here.
Gilwoo Lee: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Aman Chopra: I mean, that intro to me when even reading it and thinking about it and typing it out for you was, wow, how did someone do so much and end up in this direction? So I would love to hear about your path in academia, you know, what made you choose all these degrees? How did you start the student that's probably watching this right now saying, "I don't know where to go with my life, but I have these interests." How did you form your own path and direction?
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, definitely so. When I started my undergrad, I had like a single mission for myself, which is that, okay, I gotta really find out what I really like. And I gave myself sort of about 10 years, you know? Meaning, I felt like I needed to try a bunch of different things to really find out what I'm passionate about, what I'm really good at. So I was pretty good at trying new things and jumping into new things, and essentially also sometimes good at quitting when I knew that, oh, this is definitely not my path. So, (chuckles) but coming into undergrad, I knew that I was interested in mainly two things. One was either movies or media, or the second one was AI and robotics, so-
Aman Chopra: What a difference.
Gilwoo Lee: They're different, but I think there were two kind of one overlapping theme, which was that it had to be something visual and physical. And both of those, I felt like they have the power to reach everybody in the world, you know, like that's the power of movie, media or that's the power of AI and robotics and technology. So I was really drawn to those things. By kind of being at MIT, I was naturally exposed to robotics and AI stuff from early on, but also spend a lot of my kind of time outside of MIT, interning and working in the movie industry from sophomore and which led me to internship at Disney Animation Studios. And my first job – full-time job – was actually at Dreamworks Animation, so I was in the "Kung Fu Panda 2." So if you wait forever in that movie ending credit, you'll see my name there. So that's kind of my first path was in like, so actually from between undergrad and MIT and masters, there was about 3 to 4-year gap where I was trying a lot of things in the movie industry and then eventually led me to, actually, help my friend start a company startup. And then between those two, I started realizing, oh, I actually really like solving technical problems and wanted to go back to MIT and start the other journey in robotics and AI, that's why I ended up kind of going back and got my master's degree. And then it was just too fun. I didn't actually plan in continuing with like a PhD, it was just that the robotics was just so fun. And I realized, oh, I need more than just a year and a half in my master's degree to learn more about these robots and how to apply AI in robotics. So I applied for a PhD program and that's kind of how I started at CMU, Carnegie Mellon, and then ended up kind of finishing my degree at the University of Washington.
Aman Chopra: Wow, you mentioned this one thing, you know, it seems very easy when you say it like that, and I'm sure you went through a lot, right? There was this key thing you mentioned about quitting, I know when to quit. For some people they have that word called FOMO, or that term called FOMO, or, you know, I don't know what I don't know, maybe I hold onto this. How do you have that certainty feeling inside of you that this is not for me?
Gilwoo Lee: I think there are, maybe there's one thing that I realized, and that was actually through maybe talking to some of my friends that are really good at sticking to a job, and I do mean that I think that's also really valuable talent to have. And now that I've found my passion, I've been doing this for now 10 plus years. So it's not to say that, you know, you always gotta quit soon, but for me, it was more that I had and I still do have a pretty firm belief that I have everything I need in terms of my talent, grit, and maybe a little bit of luck to achieve the things that I really wanna achieve. And that comes with the right amount of intelligence. You know, I really love solving problems. I really love meeting people and convincing people to build things together. So I had that formed belief that made me less afraid about quitting something when, not when it wasn't working out. I think it was always, you know, I was achieving things in that path as well, but more when I realized, oh, I saw where this path is going, and I started to realize that, oh, that's not what I wanna achieve, spend the rest maybe next 10 years of my life and maybe less feeling less excited about the intellectual challenges that are coming up with this path. So with the firm belief that I have the ability to achieve things that I wanted and then with the desire to really find what I really wanna do, because that when you combine those two things, your ability and your passion, that's where your kind of full power comes in. I was willing to both like jump into new things and then ready to move on when I thought I learned everything I needed and tried everything that I needed in that path to get to the next thing.
Aman Chopra: And so you had this inherent feeling or a passion that, this is my passion, this is where I want to explore my curiosity, so I'm gonna invest my time into this. It was a decision and you kind of followed your heart is the generic way of saying it? How would-
Gilwoo Lee: Yes, definitely. So for example, I spent three years in the movies/media industry trying different things, and I genuinely enjoyed, and I still have very deep respect in people in that industry. So I started by being a technical staff in a big movie company and being part of a movie, which was awesome. And I'm still very proud of that. And then that led me to kind of, the one thing that I always have and whenever I'm in a new industry that I'm really curious about, like, what are the leaders of this industry doing? So immediately when I started in that kind of the bottom role, tiny role in Dreamworks, I was looking for, okay, who's the senior most person that's leading the technology here? What are they doing?
Aman Chopra: Wow.
Gilwoo Lee: And then I was also looking into, okay, who's the creative producer here? What are they doing? And who's the one who's like putting the money to make these things? I was really curious about and I wasn't really going, choosing a job position that would necessarily lead me to take a path, but I was always asking or trying to get into a position that lets me see the bigger picture as soon as possible.
Aman Chopra: Yeah.
Gilwoo Lee: So for example, in the movie Kung-Fu Panda 2, I signed up for a position in the lighting team, mainly because that's the team where the final frames get made. So I do get to see just like a whole process of the movie-making, at least in the kind of the day to day. And then I was like, okay, I really wanna see the bigger picture, the decision-making. So then I got a job in Korean movie industry where the company invests in making movies. That means as the bottom most person in that company, I actually get to interface with the movie producers and directors as my day-to-day job, because that's what I'm kind of helping, reporting to my company, like how this movie is being made. So I got to see the full picture of how these movies get funded, what are the directors, how do the directors make decisions? And after going through a lot of them, I kept doing it for like about three years because I was so passionate about it. And then I finally realized that I still find it really fun, but there's like a little bit of the intellectual mismatch in terms of what I love, just in terms of problem-solving and then what this industry needs. So that's kinda why I decided to move on. Yeah, I think that's about it.
Aman Chopra: It's so interesting to see how process of movie showed you love for process, but lack of intellectual understanding or feeling around it kind of took you to the next step. So you liked the process of problem-solving and making those decisions and structure, and you took that same structure and applied it into a-
Gilwoo Lee: To like entrepreneurship.
Aman Chopra: Completely different industry.
Gilwoo Lee: But the key thing that was missing there, that was that A) I was pretty quick to realize, I don't have the artistic creativity talent. I don't really enjoy like doing those things. Like, but that's the key kind of gem that I really liked about movie-making. However, you know, I liked the process and the kind of how the things get funded and how people work together there, which I think is like a big part of being a startup founder. What I really missed in the process was doing math and computer science and physics and all these things I really loved doing as an engineer. So that drew me back into kind of MIT and learning robotics.
Aman Chopra: You found an interest in robotics, and that's what took you into the world of robotics after that?
Gilwoo Lee: Right, right. So initially, just as an undergrad, I was interested in both. And then after kind of spending enough of my time and exploration in the movie industry, I definitely learned everything I wanted and needed in terms of just like how to build a company, how to work with multiple different people from different talent, different background. But I really wanted to go back to something that's a little bit more technical that I really like, which was robotics and AI.
Aman Chopra: The PhD was something that you used to expand and going deep into a subject since you didn't find a year and a half to two years being enough. So after that PhD, how did Zordi come to life? What was that whole process like?
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, so it was actually maybe around the fourth and fifth year of my PhD
that I started getting a little bit frustrated about what I wanna do next. I still really, really like doing robotics. I really, really like doing research, but I knew that there was just something missing in terms of my fit in working in a big company as a research scientist. So I even interned at, back then it was Facebook – Facebook Reality Lab. And I really enjoyed working with amazing postdocs. Everybody knew so much more about the field of like AI, generative AI or virtual reality. So it was genuinely fun, but I felt like the thing that I didn't quite enjoy was just being part of a really big work and making relatively smaller contribution in terms of just advancing the things that I'm working on. And I felt very similar things even when I was working in Dreamworks. And I think that's kind of maybe something that, you know, some people genuinely love because the nice thing about working in these big technology company or big kinda movie company is that the things you do end up just getting out to a lot of people, you know? I did a one minute sequence in Kung Fu Panda 2, but that still got to, you know, be viewed by millions of people, right? So that's one exciting part of it. But for me, the impact that I could bring day to day to this org and our final outcome was a lot more important, rewarding. So I knew that despite me really enjoying the research aspect, I needed to take more ownership in the things that I do. So I got a little bit frustrated, the mismatch. So I told my advisor for the first time in my fifth year and said, I need to take probably two weeks off, I feel a little bit lost. And this was the first time that I ever took vacation in my PhD. And I went back to Korea and met a ton of my friends, mentors that I've met in my past life outside before I started my PhD. And the amazing thing was that… So I met them, maybe I've been keeping in touch, but this was like after maybe five years. A lot of them have already started their own thing. Like the person who was leading a movie-making team in a big corp now got his own movie studio, things like that, so I was like very enlightened by their ability to start their own thing and kinda putting their talent and energy and creativity to build something that they really like. So I came back after that two weeks and told my advisor, said, I think I'm gonna quit my PhD and start my own company. So I was almost about to quit and start my own company. And back then, I haven't even decided what to start. It was more that I was fully committed and enthusiastic about starting my own company. Luckily my advisor had a co-founding experience and was well-connected with the VC world, the investment world. And he just gave me really good advice on, let's wrap it up, you have only like, you already know what you wanna write about your thesis, let's start exploring startup ideas together. So he helped me kind of transitioning into starting my own company without quitting.
Aman Chopra: Without quitting, yeah, the step-by-step process. - Exactly. - It seems like you put yourself in situations where you're learning exactly what the goals are and you're around great mentors that are also advising you at the same time, while staying in a structured path, which in that case was a PhD or education, so you kind of have, you're like an octopus with multiple arms, but it's like there's still a solid foundation or a core to that thing.
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, definitely.
Aman Chopra:There's a lot of people, you know, I've spoken to some people recently, they're in their 20s or even teenage years and they feel like they're too old. And then there's some people in their late 20s that they feel they're too old. And there's some people that are in their late 30s and they feel they're too old. When you say all the experience you have done, it feels like a lifetime so far. And I'm asking this question from the perspective that, Is it ever too late? Like, do you feel like you're wasting time ever? Or how do you be more intentional about, 'cause for you, you're very clear, right? But three years in movie production and movie studios is a long time for knowing that you went into this path, but it's a step by step. So these are intentional steps that, in hindsight, did they feel intentional to you when you were making them or you didn't know what you were getting into as well?
Gilwoo Lee: I certainly didn't know what I was getting into. And even though like I gave myself as an undergrad, like starting undergrad, like maybe roughly 10 years, truthfully, knowing myself, if it took me 20 years, I probably would've done it. So for me…
Aman Chopra: Wow.
Gilwoo Lee: I think I never feel too old to start something that I feel really important and passionate about. The one thing that I try to do, you know, still learning how to build the habits, is to try to keep healthy and keep learning and stay focused to be able to continue doing things that I love and continue not being afraid to start new things. And it could be, you know, depending on the experience that I accumulate so far in the next 10 years, it could be starting a new company, it could be starting a new venture capital or it could be, you know, helping others with different types of things. But yeah, I never think that there's any time where there where it's like too late to start something that you really love.
Aman Chopra: So yeah, you're saying stick in it, it's never too late type of mentality. I guess that's the answer. It's just so interesting to hear that, this is heavy time commitment and it still feels like you're getting started and you're-in-it-to-win-it type of thing. But if you didn't do that, you wouldn't have got there. Tell me about your startup. What is Zordi? How does it influence public health? What does it mean to you?
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, so at Zordi, we're building a sustainable future for everyone with robotic autonomous greenhouses. Our goal is to make these fresh, sustainable, locally grown food available to everybody in the world, starting with metropolitan areas and make that affordable as we scale. And the reason why we started this with this concept is that with climate change and labor challenges, we need to find more climate resilient, sustainable ways to grow fresh produce. And growing is only one part of it, delivering is another big part of the total carbon footprint that's coming out of this whole process in agriculture. So by being local and by enabling local production through greenhouses and more automation, you make the fresh produce a lot more available to the local population and really ensure regional food security and also make the farms a lot more, I would say rich or more profitable because you're really skipping the middle process and you get to really sell or deliver directly to your retail partners, or maybe depending on the farm, it could be you directly to consumers.
Aman Chopra: Got it. You know, I've heard this before from you in our conversations before, how did this startup come to life? What was that moment that you said, “I wanna start something like this?”
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, so I've been always interested just as outside of my academia, very curious about sustainability and how me as a person or as someone who's building a company, do something that's related to sustainability, which is ultimately related to everyone's health like public health. This was 2020, it was in the middle of the first, I think, phase of COVID. So everyone was kinda stuck in most of their homes for most of the days. And this was around summertime where we also had a wildfire. And this was just getting worse and worse every year, we had about 10 days where we were supposed to really not leave, get out of the house at all as much as possible, or you had to really wear masks to just protect yourself from the dust. And I was googling like, when this is gonna end, and the sky was still pretty smoky and I saw that, I was in Seattle and the ocean, the beach was full of baked clamshell because of the wildfire and everything, creating a heat dome, and then it was like getting rotten. I was like, “ha, this is like so real and tangible to my life. I gotta start something that enables – it's directly related to the food that I love, like seafood and fresh produce. I gotta do something that addresses this over time as we scale.” And coincidentally, I was already kinda reviewing what we can do in agriculture and what can automation do? And this kind of really clicked in terms of my passion and commitment and really, this strong desire to solve this as part of my mission.
Aman Chopra: The clams were baking and your mind was baking at the same time.
Gilwoo Lee I was like, “I gotta solve this or I'm gonna lose all the fresh, you know, food that I really love.”
Aman Chopra: So if you can explain what the process is like of how Zordi does it, but explain it like you were explaining it to a 4-year-old, what would that look like? So how does this happen inside the autonomous greenhouse setting that you have created?
Gilwoo Lee: As in like how the greenhouses operate?
Aman Chopra: Yeah, how they operate, how is produce created in that environment? How do you do that?
Gilwoo Lee: So greenhouses are relatively new in the US but just from the history of agriculture, it's actually more like a hundred plus year old system to extend seasons and make the general production more climate resilient. So we use hydroponic systems, we use what's called drip irrigation, which is just an autonomous watering system that could be connected to the sunlight intensity of the day or soil moisture. So it uses those sensor-based data to precisely water at the right time for the plants. And then there's also, generally environmental control systems in the greenhouse that cools the greenhouse when needed by ventilation or warms the greenhouse, depending on what you have typically in the US, natural gas is one of the available options. So there is a lot of autonomous environmental kinda temperature control, moisture control, irrigation, watering, all happening at the same time. And then the watering is designed to give the plants not just water, but nutrition, right? So there is a nutrition mixing tank that puts in nitrogen and all these other chemicals that the plants need to grow them. So that's the basics of a hydroponic greenhouse. Now, it still requires a ton of expertise to grow them well, like if you ask me, and even now, you know, without our technology, I'll be failing in growing these crops well. Typically, it takes decades of experience to farming to grow fresh produce successfully in greenhouses. So what we do at Zordi is to really eliminate or reduce the need for horticultural experts to be on site and making key decisions day to day with our monitoring robot and our AI, which help, which provide really dense understanding of the crop health everywhere and produces day-to-day, the action items that need to be happening at the farm, including changing the nutrition, changing the temperature control of those, but as well as any kind of crop care activities, for example, harvesting. The other last piece here is that there's, now that you've got decisions made with our AI, somebody's gotta execute it. And that's another big part of what we are building. You can't really deploy these greenhouses wherever you want unless you are able to reduce the labor meaningfully, significantly to the point that you don't really have to worry too much about managing a big crew. Here, we started with harvesting robot that harvests and grades immediately and packs the berries, which is our first fruit into packages that typically ends up reducing the manual labor by about 40 to 60%. So with that, we really get to complete the full picture of scouting and monitoring, understanding what the plants need, making decisions with AI, and doing a significant portion of the manual labor with our automated systems, including our harvesting robots. And the really nice thing is actually it comes back to the scouting robot in terms of checking whether things got done properly and whether the crop is growing properly. So there's a full circle, which basically these days, the level of information that we get through the system is so much dense that I think we are definitely getting toward to the level of superhuman level monitoring and superhuman level AI between all of these three things.
Aman Chopra: So if I were to explain it, horticulture expert is someone that's an expert in farming?
Gilwoo Lee: Yes, correct.
Aman Chopra: Okay. So if I were to explain it to a 4-year-old, there's three roles and all the roles are run by robots right now.
Gilwoo Lee: Robots and AI.
Aman Chopra: Robots and AI. Role number one is the kind of the scouter that's assessing everything. So it's a robot that's scouting everything. Role number two is the manager that's looking – the expert. And hopefully the machines will start making superhuman-like decisions in the moment, so produce can flourish or they can pick a certain direction. And then there's the mechanical robot that's actually working and doing the farming.
Gilwoo Lee: Correct, correct.
Aman Chopra: Inside the-
Gilwoo Lee: Inside the greenhouse, yes.
Aman Chopra: And what is a greenhouse exactly, if you were to describe it?
Gilwoo Lee: So greenhouses, there's a spectrum, but most common types are essentially, big metal structures with transparent films. Like the film could be glass or polyethylene, or some kind of new materials that let the sunlight go in. So it's really more of, started with the idea of let's protect the plant. And sometimes depending on the crop, some of these greenhouses are super basic. They're just really providing a cover. Sometimes depending on the crop and the region, they're a lot more resilient. They have like inflation, inflated materials or they have like glass material for better transparency. Essentially, it's a very simple structure that protects the crops.
Aman Chopra: Do you find these in terms of the future of Zordi, but let's take it into public health, the future of agriculture and how we are gonna consume food. Where do you see this going? 'Cause you've created this entire business, which is your heart, soul, life and even the soul of the robots to some degree is in this. What is the future of agriculture? Where do you see it going? Is this gonna be a necessity or a requirement? And you mentioned climate change and all those things that are happening.
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, I definitely see greenhouses being essentially a necessity for fresh produce. And more and more countries will definitely be needing those and utilizing those, there will be different types of greenhouses that are being available for different regions for sure. And making them a lot more, you know, climate resilient per that region. And I also think that given the advancement of AI and robotics and also just challenges in labor. In 20 years, most of the farms will be using some kind of AI and robotics. So combining these two, you know, the climate resilience and regional food security, sustainability that greenhouses provide relative to the field and the ability of AI and robots really boost the way of farming. I do think that robotic greenhouses will be everywhere a lot more than what we expect to see in the next 10 years.
Aman Chopra: So you sense that, I wouldn't call this a success because technically, this is a need that's come out of some type of issue in the world, but a success for a project like this is seems to be 10 to 20 years away for us, where this is gonna become mainstream, if you will.
Gilwoo Lee: Yes, yes. So for us, you know, whether it's through Zordi or Zordi's partners or just Zordi's robotics and AI technology, the success for us is really enabling, you know, sustainable, better food available to everywhere. And essentially what I want is for you or anybody to walk into a grocery store and see a Zordi inside product, or Zordi branded product and be able to comfortably say that, oh, this has probably grown in the most sustainable way and delivered sustainable way. And I think it's gonna be a really high quality product. I've tasted them before, I can buy this here. And you know, the product that we get in New York City is not too different from what I get in Jackson, Tennessee and they're both like local. You know, that's the result that I'd be really excited about.
Aman Chopra: Wow, how do you think, so this will become as a subject of environments changing and then people will automatically like it's kind of like right now what we say organic-grown in this farm, but then eventually that would be replaced with grown in a Zordi greenhouse?
Gilwoo Lee: Grown in Zordi greenhouse grown in local greenhouses, you know, I think those will definitely be the more of a new organic or new way of farming that people appreciate more. I think people will soon and they're already getting educated I think just by buying those products that they're better, you know, they have longer shelf life because they're local and they're grown in hydroponic systems and in a very clean way and that they're more sustainable, sometimes even compared to organic farms.
Aman Chopra: Who are your main customers right now? So who are the people you're interacting with? Are they mainly kind of like a Wegmans for you or is it something that there are chefs as well who are talking to you? Do you talk to people in the world of nutrition, the people that have influence on food and dishes, restaurants?
Gilwoo Lee: A little bit of both, but our main customer base that we are trying to network more and understand more are definitely bigger grocery retail partners like Wegmans, you know, Whole Food, Walmart, all of those with big grocery section. And then occasionally, we definitely engage with some chefs and try to get some feedback as well. But in the end, we're trying to really feed the world and make it more available at scale. So we are trying to understand that customer base as much as possible.
Aman Chopra: You mentioned the world and something that came to my mind was, there's a lot of countries that have, and I'm sure you might have been asked this question before, where there is a lack of access to food and do you see this kind of a business or this kind of a model impacting those areas where there's no access to food as well?
Gilwoo Lee: Eventually, yes. I think, you know, just knowing the near term goals and midterm goals and also just the impact that advanced modern, advanced countries have when it comes to how they source fresh produce. We will certainly be operating first in the more, you know, advanced countries where people are willing to pay for higher fresh produce. And the reason is not necessarily because we need to stay in premium, but also actually more because those are the countries where… If you look at the global gas, greenhouse gas and how much advanced countries are paying for transportation, they're willing to pay air freight things because their customers want it. And that's like a big part of the carbon footprint of these fresh produce. So I think actually it's more strategic and more sustainable to start with those countries and really work out obviously our unit economics to get to those other regions, even in those countries and in other countries where, you know, you're really enabling regional security even for the low-income population,
Aman Chopra: The way I see it, it's like these are health organizations of the world might be target, like be interested in this down the line and-
Gilwoo Lee: Definitely, yes.
Aman Chopra: impacting certain areas where they send people or they try to send food. And now what if food can just be created over there in a local and healthy manner.
Gilwoo Lee: And that'll be the most exciting kind of part of our scaling. You know, the fact that we could get to that level of unit kind of economics of these farms to be self-sustainable as a business and then be able to serve the regions where there's literally no fresh produce available. That'll be really exciting.
Aman Chopra: You know, this is a dream, essentially. It's your dream and I'm also now, you know, I'm on the clouds of that dream and I'm seeing it from the top-down view. What I'm curious to know is, it is a dream, but it's a big machine that you're running. Your machines are a big machine that you have to run. Let's go into the day in the life of a startup thing and perhaps let's start with what you tell the students at NYU when you come here, you speak to them. What are common questions you get asked about running a startup and things like that? What are answers you usually give in that world?
Gilwoo Lee: So typically, I think maybe I'll start by describing my usual days or weeks. So typically for us, we have pretty clear kinda long-term goal and midterm kinda near term goals. So, but we do a lot of things as a startup at the same time, there's a team building and testing robots, team building AI and a team literally growing fresh produce. So a big part of my job is to make sure that everybody continues to understand what everybody else is working on and why they're working on it and understand the contribution each other's making to build the whole thing together 'cause otherwise you as a single kind of person, really busy working, you know, 60, 70 hours per week will just feel a little bit like maybe exhausted or burnt out. Not seeing the progress that we've made so far or not seeing the near term kind of goals that we're gonna achieve together or even the longer ones. So that's a big part of it. As in like I make sure that there are enough, but not too many meetings where those things are being kind of communicated and then also meeting with new investors and really kind of sharing our vision and convincing them our new partners to start kind of selling our fresh produce or selling potentially, you know, partnering for technology. The NYU program that I am involved in is called EFL and it's really for NYU's the startup founders, entrepreneurs to connect with NYU students, but also to the investors and mentors in the northeast. So really, I would say 80, 90% of it is actually, I get a ton of mentorship and advice and really energy by being in this network. You know, startup is a long journey, and nobody really knows what a successful startup in this particular thing that I'm building should look like. So I learn a ton by getting advices from the mentors, investors and the NYU's resourcing network. Now, another portion of it that I'm also very kinda grateful to have is to interact with NYU students. Most of them are either the going through the MBA program or kind of connected with this particular program. So like they're computer science, engineering and master's students who's part of this program. And typically, I think they are very interested in startups, that's why they joined this program. And either as like a willing-to-be-a-founder or willing to join a early stage startup after they finish their program. So most of those conversations are really more about why did I start this company? What is it like to start kind of, what is it like to build a company or what is it like to build the team, or what should they expect if they were to join a startup? 'Cause I think starting a company versus joining an early stage startup are two kinda very different experiences even though you're both kind of building the same, like a really great thing together. So I try to be as practical and maybe also honest in those questions.
Aman Chopra: For the students that, and a lot of people are now gonna Google this program, probably, especially the startup ones that are interested. What would you tell those students that are looking this up or might not even have access to that program right now and what is it like to start a startup?
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, so the NYU-EFL program is an accelerator program that's designed for companies that just started. So I think we were one of the... In that program we're a little bit more mature than many other companies. There are sometimes founders that just started with an idea or they just have a patent and they're converting that into an idea. And so I think it's great for students that have some ideas and have something more tangible to start looking into this type of a program 'cause you'll get a ton out of that. I think it's a little bit different say, for those who are just kind of exploring the ideas. EFL is best when you already at least have something to start with or already have a company like just started a company for example. So it's sort of the next stage if you're already committed to start a company, you kind of have an idea, then you can be part of this program to really expand further.
Aman Chopra: So yeah, I mean, the public health student that's thinking of starting company, well, what is that whole process like? Take us back to day one, Gilwoo, that started Zordi.
Gilwoo Lee: I think it really depends a lot on the startup that you are looking to build, but I think it always starts with exploring a lot of ideas that about what you're passionate about and what you think would make money 'cause I think startup is in the end like a profit business. So there are a lot of amazing things with public health and I think makes a lot more sense to maybe stay in nonprofit and that's another path that you can do.
Aman Chopra: Interesting.
Gilwoo Lee: And for example, you know, I think the Bill and Melinda Foundation, I think they're doing a lot of amazing stuff, but I think if you're starting, if you are really interested in joining a startup or starting a startup, then you really have to think about how will this scale, how will it eventually start making money? Is this gonna be a startup that's backed by venture capitals or is this gonna be more like a company where you'll be slowly making money and actually eventually kinda getting big? Typically the reason why I'm separating those out like a VC-funded business and something that's not a VC-funded business can take very different paths in terms of like scale up kind of curve. So those are just the key things that I think, you don't have to decide in the beginning, but just something to learn about and think through 'cause if you want, if you think that your idea is gonna be more successful by having some sort of venture capital investments, then you really need to form it in a way that's convincing to those investors. And typically, that's a very new process that I don't think as a student, I was ever exposed to.
Aman Chopra: So expose that to students VC versus self-funded or kind of taking your own path once seems to have, what is a VC, venture capitalist, how would you describe that? And then I guess most people that are watching it and are starting my thing, “I want to do it myself. I don't want anyone as a part of my business is a standard one.” So what is the importance of something like a VC? How does that work?
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, and VCs can come at different stages of your company. So you could definitely start with a ladder, like, I'm gonna start my own thing and just keep solidifying my idea. And once I have some traction, you know, whether that's number of users or the revenue that I'm making, then I'm gonna take it to venture capital. That's definitely a very valid path. The benefit of having a venture capital backed business is that you essentially have convinced a set of investors that there is a path that would scale up very quickly and you're on the curve, your vision is on that curve and where you've identified and solved the key challenges associated with it. And as a result, once you're able to successfully convince them, you get early access to bigger capital. And typically there is, once you're at the beginning of the curve, and especially with like these maybe harder problems that you wanna solve. For example, for us it's like, we're trying to build robotic greenhouses, this is gonna be pretty capital heavy or very common examples are like biotech. You may have the core technology or you may be the expert in making that, but you still need money, right? So that's where the VCs like having really good VCs or investors is super valuable. They bring you the capital that you need to build your dream quicker and in return, you certainly, you know, would be sharing some equity, but I think that's totally valuable depending on what you're pursuing.
Aman Chopra: Understood. And for those of you even more confused about that, just watch Shark Tank. It's basically what Gilwoo just described, but we're getting the real life experience. Let's probably ask a question they don't ask on Shark Tank or what does it take to be a startup? Like what kind of a person should actually get into a startup? So if you're like this, I think the startup life is for you, and I think you saw that in yourself. So you decide I'm gonna take the startup route. What kind of a person should do a startup?
Giwoo Lee: Yeah, I think one of the partners at Y Combinator, which is sort of like the EFL program in the Silicon Valley, made a very good point. There's maybe, you know, less than 1% of global population who really, really, for them startup or being an entrepreneur is like the only thing that makes sense to them. And that they really, really want or love having the ownership and being able to solve big problems and feel very passionate about that for many, many years. And maybe part of them, you know, they don't wanna follow like orders, that's maybe another big part of their thing. For me, it was like for some reason I couldn't get myself passionate about being part of a big company. And it wasn't really about, like, it wasn't that I wasn't excited about being part of a big movie. I'm still very proud and excited about it. It was just that day to day I just couldn't be that excited. So I think there's definitely that type of personality in addition to really wanting to solve bigger problems. Those two need to be combined to, for you to be a startup entrepreneur, founder. If you are really just a former, that's also totally fine. You may or may not be looking for a startup, you know, you may be just looking for a really good business, you know? My mom owns her own business, she loves doing it. She's not looking to expand or scale up, it's just that she likes that ownership. And my father was the same too. So there's that like an entrepreneurial kind of personality. And in addition maybe the passion and willingness to solve bigger problems, I think those two combined make you really exciting startup founder. Now there's a second group. I think they could be really good at being a founder or being also really good at being really great at big companies. I think for them they have more flexibility and I think my guess is that those people may be really good at being a co-founding team 'cause they also bring in a ton of typically expertise, energy, commitment. It's not that they lack those things, it's just that they have both options available. I think being a founder versus co-founding team, both of them are highly rewarding. It's really up to your personality and also just up to you finding the right partner. So I could have joined another company if I could… No, I should take that back. I don't think I could have joined another company. I think I definitely was someone who had to start my own company, but I definitely have people in my company who I think are also very capable of starting their company and I'm really, really grateful to have them join me as a co-founding team. So I think you could be one of those people. And then there's a third group that are highly, highly talented and I think a lot of NYU students are in doing really great, achieving really big things in established organizations. And that's also really important part of, you know, building the future together. So I think it's really important to understand your personality because it's not that one is better than the other, it's really more about where do you belong and where do you shine.
Aman Chopra: And then that goes back to the start of the podcast, you understand that by doing and putting yourself in experiences in your case, that was the thing. Are there any other ways that you have seen work for people?
Giwoo Lee: I've definitely seen, so a lot of my friends, especially my high school friends and college friends are mostly on the other side. And they find me kind of amusing because they think that, and the way how they described it was that, Gilwoo, I really like, and they're really good in their work, I really like advancing in a structured environment. So I think, you know, you will probably, you should be able to tell by trying things. If you're more on the latter side in terms of just the talent and personality fit, you might be able to soon realize it after joining the company you love, right? Or if you're on the other side, then either you love or well, if you're more of a startup type and then joined a big company, then you'll probably soon realize, oh, I really don't like this. Then you have the decision to make whether you're gonna quit and start your own company or join a startup, or kind of stay there and try to find your ways in that org. And I think that's kind of the point that you're making earlier, as in, a lot of people are hesitant to quit. And I think that's the key, maybe difference between people who are joining or starting startups or people who are not doing that.
Aman Chopra: I think that term is called entrepreneur versus intrapreneur. Intrapreneur, is an internal entrepreneur in a way. So you can be an entrepreneur-
Gilwoo Lee: Yeah, for sure.
Aman Chopra: if you don't wanna build that structure, but wanna serve your talents in a place.
Gilwoo Lee: Definitely.
Aman Chopra: Gilwoo, one last area. Where do you see the startup landscape in the world of public health going? So you're a big contributor, or this is your world now. What are other startups you feel like public health is a big area for startups to come into right now?
Giwoo Lee: Definitely, I must admit that because my startup database a lot more closely related to agriculture, not everybody that I interact with is exposed to like, or doing something that's directly addressing public health. That said, I think a lot of those two areas in public health is getting really strong push because it tends to be the area that gets most impacted by climate change to some degree. And also just availability of fresh water. A lot of those things are just kind of related to both agriculture and public health. And then there are also a lot of exciting advancements in AI and like generative AI and also just biotech, that's also related to like public health. So I think there are, maybe, my guess is that there's more to come in public health startups in terms of how to make it profitable and scalable. I think there are very few successful companies that are in the public health space that's well-known to the world as, oh, this company built something amazing that's like saving the world, right? I think there are definitely a lot of interests and a lot of new funds that are created to directly address public health and which will naturally kinda flow into more startups.
Aman Chopra: I'm loving this, wow. All right, let's ask you, you know, you've given us words of wisdom, maybe you realize it or didn't, but your whole story is a testament to the amazing work you're doing and what's coming next for you. And I wish you nothing but success, and I'm sure success is already coming your way based on the things you're about to do even after this podcast as well. For the student that's getting started on their journey or midway through their journey, or someone that's failed in their life as well and wants to get back, some words of wisdom you'd leave with them right now, that you always hear like, what's the one thing that you remind yourself about regularly?
Giwoo Lee: There were definitely times in my life where I didn't always like wake up with that, but having a strong belief in your own ability to be positive and to have the right talent, I think that's the first thing that is really important for everyone. And I think, you know, someone might be going through a phase of their life that they can't be grateful of everything that's happening to them, you know? For me, when I was going through those, I kind of imagined myself as being a really good surfer, having a really big surfboard. And the thing that I'm really good at is maybe in the middle of turbulence, I'm just, you know, surfing. And eventually you'll get out of it and you're already, you have been, as a result, being part of a big journey and a great journey. So I think having, continuing to remind yourself about your talent, your ability, and just, you know, the ability to stay positive, that's been the most helpful part of my life.
Aman Chopra: I love it. Well, we're gonna surf away from this episode. That was an awesome, awesome, awesome insights, Gilwoo. Thank you for sharing all of that, sharing who you are. Folks will put links to Zordi in the description if you wanna learn all about it. And we got this hard thing to remind all of you to like and subscribe and put anything in the comments of what you thought was interesting or what you liked, or what you would like to see more of. Gilwoo, thanks for being on this episode.
Giwoo Lee: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Aman Chopra: We'll see you in the next one, folks, take care.