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EP147 Global Health Strategies in Nairobi with Lee-Ann Lugg and Natalia Ramon
Aman Chopra: Folks, welcome back to another episode of the I Am GPH podcast. It's one thing to take a class at GPH with amazing world class faculty, but it's another thing to take class with people currently serving in the real world. Our GPH students partnered with UNICEF and Strathmore Business School for a study abroad course titled Behavioral Communication Strategies for Global Epidemics. We're gonna call it BCSE for this episode. And it was in Nairobi, Kenya. There were 34 participants, 21 MPA students from NYU GPH, eight staff from UNICEF representing Afghanistan, Tanzania, Malawi, Mozambique, and even Pakistan, and five health management professionals from Kenya. They were organized into seven teams, each with a mix of students and professionals to develop implementable social and behavioral changes, strategies that address ongoing public health challenges in East Africa, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. I find that really cool. And on today's episode we have two awesome students that took part in this program and are here to share all their experiences, Lee-Ann Lugg and Natalia Ramon. Welcome to the I Am GPH Podcast.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Thank you.
Natalia Ramon: Thank you for having us.
Aman Chopra: Now I kept that intro really long because I wanted to show everyone what this is. Taking a class with people that work at UNICEF and working with them on a project and also having people that are representing the area you're in is really, really cool. Did you know you were signing up for this when you signed up for the class?
Natalia Ramon: No, not at all. Whenever I first heard about the course, it was just because of one of the hundred NYU emails that get sent out and I was like, okay, you know, that sounds interesting. I'll just send an application. I didn't really put much thought into it. It was a quick application and I was definitely not, you know, prepared for all that I would be introduced to.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Yeah, I definitely don't think I expected the kind of experience that we had. I knew I wanted to do study abroad when I started at GPH, so I was definitely kind of looking out for the email and I definitely wanted to apply, but I got more than I anticipated for sure.
Aman Chopra: So both of you applied because you wanted to study abroad. You weren't like, I think this is cool. Let's see what happens. Was that the case?
Natalia Ramon: Yeah, I just, I saw that it was a study abroad, and there were other locations there, so I was like, those would be fun. And just went for it.
Lee-Ann Lugg: So this was actually the only course open to Epi students, so I applied to that in the fall. I'd actually taken Outbreak Epi with Dr. Coyle, who's amazing. And so this class kind of felt like the right next step, you know, like figuring out how do you deal with ongoing epidemics. So, that's what really sort of interested me.
Natalia Ramon: That's funny. I just finished Outbreak Epi with Coyle also and she's the best. She's awesome. And it was a good, like, I was like, “Oh my gosh, we literally just hung out with the camels that are giving that terrible disease.” Like, you know? It was a good, that's a good combo to do.
Aman Chopra: Are both of you specializing in the same thing at GPH right now for your degree?
Lee-Ann Lugg: Yeah, my concentration's Epi.
Aman Chopra: Epi? Epi as well?
Natalia Ramon: Uh huh.
Aman Chopra: Epi, for those of you that are wondering, is epidemiology here at GPH if I'm not mistaken. Okay, so both of you were Epi students and signing up for study abroad courses. What were your concerns before going into a study abroad program, if any?
Lee-Ann Lugg: I think my main concern was like, as a student going in and being with these professionals who are actually in the field every day doing this work, like how much can I really contribute here? Like, you know, can I really help? What am I gonna do? Like, what am I bringing to the table essentially, right? Like, I'm a student, I'm still completing my degree. And so that's something that I was a little concerned about, but like right off the bat, Dr. Dickey is like amazing and really sort of set the tone for like, this environment of collaboration and partnership and really made us feel welcome and let us know we're colleagues with our UNICEF partners and they really embraced that as well. So I think that concern was kind of taken care of like almost immediately.
Aman Chopra: So Dr. Chris Dickey was running the program and facilitating it for all of you in Kenya?
Both: Yeah.
Aman Chopra: Nice. Were there concerns for you, Natalia?
Natalia Ramon: Right off the bat, my first concern was more like financial. Like, how is this actually gonna work? Like, am I actually gonna be able to afford all of this? But thankfully, very quickly that was solved. Like, once I had, like NYU offered certain loans to be able to cover the course cost and I was like, okay, you know what? This is manageable and then, you know, moving forward, but that's because I always think of every single worst case scenario all the time. So very quickly Professor Dickey was really quick to help solve that. He was like, “No, don't worry. I am gonna make sure this is the best experience you've ever had here. Don't worry, it's gonna be awesome.” And I mean if I had to do it again, I would do it right away.
Aman Chopra: Wow. Did either of your experiences meet the expectations? So, what you expected before and what actually happened? Was there a match or was it like, it beat my expectations. What happened? What was that for either of you?
Lee-Ann Lugg: Think it like, exceeded.
Aman Chopra: Nice.
Natalia Ramon: For sure.
Aman Chopra: What are the reasons behind that?
Lee-Ann Lugg: I think it was just like, it was just a great learning experience. Like, I know that sounds sort of like cliche and so general, but like it's true. Like it really was a great learning experience just working with people who are, you know, at UNICEF, they're on the ground, they're like, dealing with ongoing public health emergencies. They are doing that work and they just welcomed us in as colleagues and we learned so much from them and really, you know, made connections with them.
Natalia Ramon: Yeah, I think what really, really helped it to be over the top for myself was the networking part. So I got to connect with the UNICEF people and since then I have reached out to them to help with certain projects or, hey, I'm applying for internships, you know, like, can you be my reference? And they're like, of course, yes. You know, whatever you need. So it wasn't just a, you know, get there and learn some stuff and put it in the back of your brain. It was actually like, really fruitful moving forward. Like, you can use this to help yourself, not just in this class, but in your job search, your professional work also.
Lee-Ann Lugg: And we have like a group chat with some of the community health workers that we met there.
Aman Chopra: In Nairobi?
Lee-Ann Lugg: In Nairobi, yeah. And they've sort of kept us updated on how things are going there with them and so it's like, real life connections.
Natalia Ramon: Yeah.
Aman Chopra: Yeah. That's great. That's great follow-up stuff as well, right? Like, after you've done that program, what's happening there right now might be a question people ask.
Natalia Ramon: There was, I think it was the day after we left, there was a cholera outbreak. So they started sending us the updates of like, hey, we have identified two patients, and they were showing us like paperwork that they submit from the Kenyon hospital clinic that we were at. And since then, just providing more updates and wanting to start conversation about what are the community health workers like in America, what are the differences? So it's really good to know that we can still continue to be a part of that discourse and have those meaningful conversations even though we're not with them in person anymore.
Aman Chopra: Were there anything in the experiences that stood out to you, you know, culturally or even professionally that you didn't expect? So working, like you said, there's that kind of imposter syndrome, right? Like, oh my god, can I work with UNICEF? And then there's this other side that might also be, I'm going to a foreign country like Kenya. I've never been to Kenya before. Did either of you have those things about the experience that stood out to you?
Lee-Ann Lugg: Definitely. I mean, it was my first time being on the continent, so I was very excited but also like, a little nervous obviously. You know, I showed up like a few days early because I wanted time to like, explore Nairobi and just see the city. So that was a lot of fun doing that on my own and sort of branching out and going on safari on my own. So that was a great part of the experience. Yeah.
Natalia Ramon: I think something that we kept talking about when we were there was the difference in like, the class structure that there was there. Because I feel like here being, you know, from America, Americans, you know, we have like, our lower, middle, and upper class, and you can see it while we're going about our day to day. But over there it seemed like there was just two sides of the coin. So on the one hand we were appreciating the opportunities to go on these safaris and go to beautiful dinners together, but also being able to see the reality of what was happening in the low income neighborhoods like Kayole and stuff. So being able to truly witness what was happening. And not only that, but I feel like we're fed all the time that like, okay, you need to be super careful when you go to Africa. Like it's gonna be, you know, you gotta be on your Ps and Qs, like look around, blah, blah blah. But we felt pretty safe a lot of the time. We never felt uncomfortable, you know? The entire time when we did go to Kayole, we had like these random armed guards that went with us on the bus, but it didn't feel threatening at all. It was super beautiful. It was beautiful to be able to meet people from like the bead factory tour that we went on and engage with them. And they were teaching us how they make the little ceramic beads. So it was just beautiful to be able to see the culture up close and personal, and not just like on a camera or TikTok or something.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Yeah, I think I would definitely agree with that. I mean, Nairobi felt pretty safe. A lot of buildings, like whether you're going to the hotel or going to the university, like there's security checks everywhere. Even just going into the mall, you know, you go through like a metal detector, and I think like, initially it was a little jarring, you know, walking, trying to go to like the mall, and you have to search your bag. But I think those things sort of also make you feel a bit safer. Uber, we took Uber all the time, and you know, that was really accessible and a great, you know, safe way for us to travel around. So I think it was definitely, you know, we felt pretty safe being there.
Natalia Ramon: Very cared for by the people. Everybody wanted to make sure we were safe. Like, even the people we had just met moments before, one of the girls we were with, she wanted to go get her nails done and they offered to walk her back because it was getting dark. So they wanted to walk with her to make sure she made it back to our hotel safely, you know, but everything was, everybody was so loving and so welcoming.
Aman Chopra: I love hearing that. What about the staff y'all worked with? UNICEF, the local staff over there. What stood out to you about those experiences?
Lee-Ann Lugg: So my UNICEF partner on my team was from Mozambique. Her name was Felizarda. She was absolutely amazing. You know, she was so open to hearing what we had to say and listening to our ideas and I think that was really great because we were looking at her as the expert, but she was also looking to us as like, “Well, no, what do you think about this? What can you share with me?” And so I think that was a really great part as well. When we were working on our project, our team chose to focus on HPV vaccination in young girls in Mozambique, which is something that Felizarda was working on as well. And she was in constant communication with her team back in Mozambique, getting data and figures on the vaccination program and sharing that data with us like, real time. So it really felt like we were part of her team in that way.
Aman Chopra: Yeah, and it was having real world impacts in the moment as well, right?
Lee-Ann Lugg: Right, right.
Aman Chopra: That's really cool.
Natalia Ramon: Yeah, my team was really great. They were from Tanzania, so ours was looking at increasing the polio vaccination in kids in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. And he was awesome. Alicia, our UNICEF partner, was really great in facilitating the data. And so sometimes it felt a little like there was a little bit of other pressure because they were still working individuals, so he would have to leave and go on a call because these are real emergencies that are happening like we were doing this class. So being able to balance out, okay, you are the expert right now on this, and balance what our NYU peers could bring to the table and what he had and finding this space together where we could come up with something really nice for these people. And it was really great to have the input from the Kenyan healthcare workers also who were currently focusing on cholera, but they just had so much background information. At one point we considered doing a like, healthy family campaign to try to, because we heard that some of the people in Tanzania wanted the fathers to be more present and involved in the vaccines. So we discussed this with our UNICEF partners and they had so much wisdom about what the people there were actually like, because they're actually working there. And they were like, no, that's not gonna work. You know, actually, so it was that going back and forth and figuring out, okay, you know, you're definitely taking the lead on this. And you know, them giving us the space to try to come up with solutions also with their data that they had, which was really fun and it was a really nice time that we got to spend there with them.
Aman Chopra: How did all of you present this? So, I'm assuming there was a competition of some kind. Is that what you're doing with these projects that you're working on? Tell me more about that competition that happened, the strategy case that y'all were working on.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Right, so at the end of the course there's a competition. All of the groups present their strategies that they come up with. And there's a group of judges who are people from different areas of UNICEF that then judge the competition. There's no real prize except, you know, taking home the fact that like, you're group won, right? But that part was really great because it really sort of pushed us to challenge ourselves a little bit more because you know, who doesn't wanna win, right?
Natalia Ramon: We had, I think it was like, I can't even remember how many groups there were now. I think it was maybe like six or seven?
Lee-Ann Lugg: Maybe like seven groups, I think we were.
Natalia Ramon: Six or seven. Yeah. But we just had like a day of presentations and I mean, it sounds like, oh, just a cute thing. It was a very intense process. It was a very intense course. I don't think we went to bed the night before until like five in the morning, preparing for our presentations at eight, rehearsing the script over. And it wasn't just my group, everybody was up every single night. You know, after class we'd get back at like six, and then from six until whatever time you hit the pillow, like you're just up going over everything a hundred times to make sure, you know, am I asking for too much money? Am I not hitting the right points? Am I being, you know, is this gonna be received the way we want it to be received? But it was super fun and I think everybody's nerves were super high by the time presentations actually happened.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Definitely.
Natalia Ramon: But it was really great. It was really great and it was fun to be able to, my favorite part of presentations was when the judges were able to ask us questions about our presentations, like, okay, what did you mean by this? Or, you know, I thought that was fun because it just showed that, you know, they were actually hearing us and really taking into account what we were saying and seriously considering the things we were putting forward.
Lee-Ann Lugg: We all took it very seriously. Like preparing our presentations, coming up with a budget for this program, right? Working on determining like, okay, what neighborhood do you wanna work in? What community do you wanna focus on? I think it took a lot of time. This is not like your regular course at all. Probably not like a regular study abroad course, definitely. So that is, it's unique. It is intense. It's fast paced. I mean, you're there for like 12 days.
Aman Chopra: Oh wow.
Lee-Ann Lugg: And you were in class all day. So it is not the typical course, but I think we can, like you would agree, Natalia, like it's a pretty amazing experience to have.
Natalia Ramon: It's like I said earlier, we would both, I mean, I'm sure I speak for both of us, we would do it again immediately.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Absolutely.
Natalia Ramon: It was so much fun. And he was honestly saying that he does the same course in other locations also. So I was seriously considering doing it again because if you do the course again, it's not gonna be the same course again. Because you would have new problems, new issues in a different country, and having to work out the same process again to solve different problems in, you know, other countries. I can't remember what other locations they said that they'd gone to, but they've gone to a couple places, so I think it'd be fun to do it again.
Aman Chopra: Yeah, kind of sounds like consultants, business consultants.
Natalia Ramon: Almost, yeah.
Aman Chopra: Yeah, the same thing. How were the teams decided? So is it randomized that you were Team Mozambique, you were Team Tanzania? How is that decided?
Natalia Ramon: I think it was just our TA, Luis. Just assigning random people. I don't know what strategy they had.
Lee-Ann Lugg: I think we were randomly assigned to groups, but then we each have, you know, the UNICEF person and whatever country they're from is where we focused on. And then they helped us also narrow down like, what they were actually working on. So that's how we pretty much decided whether we were working on polio vaccination or HPV vaccination or cholera.
Natalia Ramon: Yeah because I know for my team, I don't remember if that was like prompted, but we were asking our UNICEF people, what is your challenge? What is your biggest challenge right now? You know, to start as a starting point for coming up with ideas for what we wanted our project to be about.
Aman Chopra: I was excited to ask you this question, both of you, where, you know, it's hard work. You put your heart and soul into a project like this. Like you were talking about HPV, you see what's happening in the world. If your hopes and dreams, you know, came to life with the project that you kind of decided, what would you imagine the country would look like in the next few years if whatever you, it might be whatever you implement might be right, might be wrong, fair enough. But what were the hopes and dreams behind that? Like how would you envision the country would be at the end of a project like this succeeding in your eyes?
Lee-Ann Lugg: Ideally, we would hear back from our UNICEF partner, Felizarda, and she would tell us like, you know, we've increased HPV vaccination by, you know, 30% in the target group or something like that. I mean, that's what we sort of created a strategy for. And so if that actually happened based on the program we came up with, that's all we could ask for. Like, that would be amazing.
Aman Chopra: What would be the benefits of that? Like in a country like Mozambique?
Lee-Ann Lugg: So Mozambique has like one of the highest rates of cervical cancer. We know it's preventable by getting this vaccination into young girls. So that would be the goal – is to save lives.
Natalia Ramon: I mean, I think that we already had a pretty good polio coverage, but it's also important for us not to forget about the stragglers. You know, and polio has such like, debilitating effects on children, especially it could lead to paralysis, which could affect them finding jobs whenever they grow up and being able to care for themselves and provide for their families. Not only that, like if you need to go access your education, you wouldn't be able to get there and it would create another financial burden on their family that's taking care of them. So just being able to increase that vaccination cover. I don't remember the exact number we were shooting for, I think it was under 10% because there was, you know, pretty high coverage already. But if they were to achieve that, then it would just, I feel like even if it is a small amount of people that are affected, it's still very important and it's vital to the future of these children who a lot of times are not telling their parents like, hey, go get me vaccinated. You know? So you have to speak to the parents. And for this, it has to be kind of like a negotiation process for these parents that don't, are not comfortable with it because of religious reasons, because of their anxiety about the vaccine. Like easing these concerns and explaining to them that like, you know, it's not harmful. It's gonna help them, it's gonna help you, it's gonna help the community as a whole. Like, it would just be honestly kind of beautiful to see everybody vaccinated. And I think that's for all of the projects, like that's something that we kept on saying the entire time was, it wasn't important to us who won the competition because as long as somebody was able to benefit from any intervention we came up with, we were all very supportive of each other and we all saw like, how hard everybody was working. So at the end of the day, any of us, as long as somebody benefits from all the hard work we're doing, it's enough.
Lee-Ann Lugg: And I think a lot of the conversations we had during the class was sharing ideas and that's what really matters, right? Like the UNICEF partners that were there were asking us questions, asking what we think, wanting to hear our ideas. And those are things that they're gonna take back to their team. You know, being in communication with their team, like in real time, getting data from them and feedback from them. And you know, the NYU people are saying, can you try this? And people on the ground are like, eh, maybe not, but what about this, you know? So like it really was collaboration and sharing ideas to create new strategies for problems that they are working on right now.
Aman Chopra: What is this process creating strategies? So, we don't need to go into full detail. It seems like all of you were up till 5:00 AM every night in a way. But how does it start? Do you brainstorm first? You were saying people discuss ideas and then you put it into play. How does that work?
Natalia Ramon: It was a long process. It was like days. It took us like four or five days of planning. I mean, that's a big old chunk out of the 12. But every day we had another colleague of Dr. Dickey come in and explain this point of view. We even had, from a business perspective, somebody coming in and explaining supply chain management to us so we could understand realistically what is it gonna take to get the resources we're asking for. And I think the big key word everybody would agree we took away from it is systems mapping. It was really big on systems mapping and doing a map for the map, and then a map for that map, and just really trying to get the biggest picture possible of like, okay, this problem with polio, we're gonna split it up into four different bubbles. And from there, is this a problem of access to healthcare? Is this a problem of religion? Is this, you know, and then from there branching off little and little like, why is this a problem and how is this one connected to this one? And then before you know it, you have like this very large map that you are able to visualize. This area has the greatest problem. So now we're gonna work backwards almost to figure out how do we solve these and get back to polio vaccines, or you know, for Mozambique, that situation over there.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Yeah, definitely. So the systems map, or the web really that it turned into, just finding all of the interconnected pieces causing or resulting in the problem that you're seeing. So that was where we started and we kind of just branched out from there just looking at all the interconnections. And it's not like a linear process, right? It isn't like A causes B, or X leads to Y, it's really all of these other pieces that are interacting with each other and figuring out like, where can you step in to make a change, right? So we focused on social behavioral change theory and trying to see like, how do you influence the decision making process for someone to get them to take their child to the clinic so that they can get the vaccination? And seeing what are all the different things happening there that you can hopefully make a change in.
Natalia Ramon: Yeah, and then like even just mapping the decision making process of the parent or whoever is responsible for what we want to happen or like at what point are they making that decision? And like mapping out pre-decision before the decision and how do we intervene at this point? How do we intervene at this point? And I think we must have had so many different maps by the time we finally got to our presentation. So it was definitely really hard work to be able to keep on expanding. And that's what the benefit was of having all of these colleagues like Helena that Dr. Dickey brought because they were able to see where we were at and then guide us. Like we thought, okay, this is perfect. We have the perfect systems map now. And they're like, oh, well you didn't consider this, you didn't consider the amount of new community health workers you're gonna need. So what incentives are you gonna bring to amp up your community health workers, and having, and so every day we'd get to a new point and they would bring another representative, like Dr. Manoncourt, and she would come in and look and be like, okay, now let's take it up again, and, you know, amplify it again. So it was a great – that's why it was really a learning experience.
Aman Chopra: Yeah, I mean it sounds, these 12 days sound like three months of experience.
Both: Easily. Yeah.
Aman Chopra: For both of you. I'm curious about this concept of, there's so many people in one team, team dynamics. Who even does the budgeting and finance? Like, if you asked me to do that, I'd be like, please, no, thank you. So how do you decide who's good at what? Like, how does that even come to life? The listeners would be thinking about group projects in school, but this is a group project on another level, right? In real time, and it's real life as well. So how do you answer that when it comes to team dynamic strategies in place? Who brings what to the table?
Natalia Ramon: I think thankfully, like our teams worked out really well. I really enjoyed my group dynamic and we had really good communication and were very honest about what our strengths were and very aware of everybody else's strengths, also. So immediately when we heard, oh, you're gonna have to come with a budget, we were like, hey Alicia, like our UNICEF person, because that is something that he did for UNICEF, was coming up with, he was like a marketing consultant for there and would come up with different projects to present to people, which would include a budget. So we were like, hey, can you take the lead on the budgeting and then explain to us how you are breaking this down so we could learn that process? But we definitely let him handle the budgeting part because I've never pitched a budget for anything before. So I was like, you know, how much is too much? Because they didn't give us, you know, like a hard stop on our budget. So I think we had to cut down, I think at one point we were like, up to a million for like a two year project. And we were like, all right, let's bring it in. Maybe not a million. But it was nice to be able to be open enough with each other to where we were like, okay, you know, we're gonna split this. And our other UNICEF partner was really great at the human approach. So we let her do the humanistic appeal in our presentation and she did really great. I mean, everybody started clapping for her before the presentation was even over. I mean, she was just awesome. But I think we just have to be very open about our strengths and go from there.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Yeah, so like my group, we worked really well together. We had three students from GPH, and then we had another student from Kenya who was at Strathmore Business School, an MBA student. So he had a totally different perspective than we do coming from public health, right? So he was also formerly a community health worker. So all of that put together, he was definitely instrumental in helping us just understand more about the Kenyan health system, but then also applying that to our country of focus in Mozambique. So that was really cool having that experience and that input from someone. And then of course, like our UNICEF colleague Felizarda was great again telling us, you know, things that could work, things that wouldn't work, and just sharing financial information to inform our budget, sharing data to understand like, okay, what would be the reach of a program like this? So yeah, we really, it was a great collaboration. I think a lot of times there's, you know, a little nervousness about group projects. I definitely have that sometimes in classes, but this was not that at all. Like, I think it was a really great working experience.
Natalia Ramon: I think whenever we're doing assignments like, regularly during the semester and you end up with a group project, it's kind of like pretty clear in the beginning like, okay, this person is obviously wanting to take the lead, and they're gonna map everything out, and they're gonna tell me what I need to do. This is what needs to be on. But it wasn't like that for our project at all. It was definitely a working process. There was not one person at all that was like, running the team. It was very much a collaboration, like a team effort, 100%.
Aman Chopra: I wish I could do this. This is a really cool program.
Natalia Ramon: You should.
Aman Chopra: How did this course evolve in the future of your public health journey? Like how does it help you evolve in your own public health journey? You're one semester at the time we're recording this video, so how has it influenced your direction and you have one more year to go in your public health journey? How has this course kind of impacted the direction of your public health outcome?
Lee-Ann Lugg: For me, it just solidified my interest in Epi even more and especially Infectious Disease Epi, which is what I'm really interested in. So yeah, I mean, it just gave me a real world perspective of what it would be like to be on the ground facing an epidemic or, you know, just, yeah. I think my focus has really been on data and numbers and you know in Epi you're tracking cases and calculating rates and this was just the complete opposite, right? And gave me a lot of experience more with qualitative data, learning about talking to communities and really listening to people and hearing what the barriers are that they're facing and being able to use that information to inform a public health strategy. So it's more than just the numbers, it's more than just the case counts. There's a lot of other factors.
Natalia Ramon: I think it was really funny whenever we got there and Dr. Dickey said something about like “The Epi students are gonna hate this, but we're not doing any surveys, we're not counting anything, we're not running any numbers.” And I was like, what are we gonna do exactly? Where do we start? How do we do this then? But it was really eye-opening to see this approach of just going out there and talking to people, which seems kind of like common sense, like you should just go talk to them. But I don't know, I think like, when you're in Epi you just learn a different approach. And for me, I have always been very focused on taking my MCAT and applying for med schools to do more immediate care. But if anything, I don't think that this class helped me to solidify what I wanted. If anything, now I'm a little torn between if I want to do immediate care or continue through like Outbreak Epi, I'm really into Outbreak Epi, and I'm doing this Public Health Disaster certificate thing here to try to help me make up my mind and decide, okay, am I, because there's so much more benefit to preventative care and stopping the problem before they even end up at the hospital. Like, especially for the cholera outbreaks. You know, we were hearing from this one representative who she was saying that she started out as a nurse at a hospital and that she was just seeing so much death from the cholera, from people getting there too late, and then there's nothing you can do at that point. So, she went back and got her MPH and started doing preventative work instead. So now I'm just at this decision point where I'm gonna have to really weigh things out and decide, you know, do I want to continue my med school journey, or do I want to do something more preventative and helpful in that sense? So, still working that out.
Aman Chopra: Nice, so you got into discovery mode, you discovered so many things that piqued your interest.
Natalia Ramon: Yeah.
Aman Chopra: And you got into clarity mode, which is like, oh wow, now I'm pretty confident in what I want to do. Which is awesome. One program serves multiple purposes. Let's ask this final question because it's interesting to see where you two are going in your life right now, but there might be students that are watching this and they're so excited to hear about this experience that it's even offered at NYU. Some people are afraid of study abroad, they want to do it. So what would you tell prospective students about study abroad and this class in general?
Lee-Ann Lugg: Take it.
Aman Chopra: Take it?
Natalia Ramon: Do it. Yeah.
Aman Chopra: Do it? Do study abroad, take the class.
Lee-Ann Lugg: 100%.
Natalia Ramon: And I think, not just limited to this course, I think it was a great opportunity just to go experience a different culture, especially if you haven't gone overseas before. It's good to be with a group of people that you know they're gonna look out for you. You know, we made so many great friendships through the program, also. Everybody got along so well. So it's really good just for not only networking on a professional scale, but also making lifelong friendships also. So I would definitely, you know, I think you should do it. I think you should take the course. You know, if it's, everything else will work itself out. Like, all of the little details.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Agreed. Yeah. I mean, being on a different campus in a foreign country, that was a great experience. We had time to sit and talk with MBA students at Strathmore and that was great too because they wanted to understand what we were doing. So we got to share a bit about our projects, talk about what we were working on, and they gave us great insight too, and asked really great questions that we then went back and was like, okay, let's see if we can make sure to cover those things, right? So overall, 100% recommend, and I would do it again.
Natalia Ramon: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Aman Chopra: Well, both of you walked us through your journey with the BCSE program from Nairobi. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm sure a lot of students are inspired, people coming to NYU, people at NYU right now. This podcast might be even viewed three years after you have recorded it and it might push someone into a direction. So thank you for sharing your insights.
Lee-Ann Lugg: Thank you for having us.
Natalia Ramon: Thank you.
Aman Chopra: Of course.
Natalia Ramon: Thank you. This was nice to go over it again.
Aman Chopra: That's Natalia Ramon and Lee-Ann Lugg, everybody. We'll put all their stuff down in the description, everything about the program. Thanks for tuning into another episode. I'll see you in the next one. Take care.